Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

gemini:// space

spwhitton.name

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 177 posts

Re: gemini:// space

#41

Post by tannhaeuser »

prepperdev wrote: post #27
h_anna_h wrote: post #25

I don't understand why the gemini people don't just use http 1.0 (+ host) with html (or plaintext/markdown/whatever even, without js/css). Seems like a case of NIH to me. Don't get me wrong, I am not against "reinventing the wheel" for a toy project or to learn but gemini seems to have become more popular than just that. If someone is really tired of the modern web I would suggest to them a distributed alternative ra…

This is covered by their FAQ: https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.html , Section 2.5 "Why not just use a subset of HTTP and HTML?"

> The problem is that deciding upon a strictly limited subset of HTTP and HTML, slapping a label on it and calling it a day would do almost nothing to create a clearly demarcated space where people can go to consume only that kind of content in only that kind of way. It's impossible to know in advance whether what's on the other side of a https:// URL will be within the subset or outside it.

Not that I can't see the appeal for the gemini devs to start from scratch and roll their own protocol rather than start with a browser and subtract the unwanted parts, but that justification is, technically, practically, and also generally very weak.

Technically, because you can very well limit HTML to a subset of markup elements (for example, to exclude elements or, likewise, onclick and similar attributes accepting script). The whole point of SGML, on which HTML is based, is to define markup languages, and also derive restricted languages from general ones. The problem here is rather that HTML on its own isn't expressive enough for interactive things we've come to expect (such as idk menus, table-of-content summaries, and other navs or in-page search dialogs and other interactive features that are not quite webapps) yet is also too powerful with js being inserted everywhere to non-heuristically comprehend content for reader mode apps and screen readers in the general case.

Practically, because syntax checkers (SGML or otherwise) and NoScript exist and have for a long time. It would also be cool if search engines could finally come around and penalize or at least flag content relying heavily on script and/or invasive tracking for ads. One way to make this happen is to introduce application/html as opposed to text/html media types.

Generally, because HTML and other markup vocabularies have been developed using public money for, well, publishing hypertext in academia, and it's odd to marginalize that original use case just because of the desires of ad companies.

Re: gemini:// space

#42

Post by rakoo »

h_anna_h wrote: post #35
prepperdev wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is covered by their FAQ: https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.html , Section 2.5 "Why not just use a subset of HTTP and HTML?"

I do not buy it. Just use gemini:// rather than https:// to refer to that specific subset of https + html. Maybe also add a header to the server response that says x-gemini: true or whatever. > It's difficult or even impossible to deactivate support for all the unwanted features in mainstream browsers Just do not use mainstream browsers then. Make your own like you do for gemini. They address it a bit later with: > W…

gemini isn't trying to reinvent the web, to make it P2P or serverless or whatever; it's just reusing the ideas of gopher and the web but going in another direction. It doesn't try to replace the web. From this point of view it makes total sense to reuse TCP, TLS and DNS, because they're not trying to replace them.

> Maybe also add a header to the server response that says x-gemini: true or whatever.

That would require adding headers, which means extension is possible, and that's explicitely something gemini doesn't want. I believe it makes sense in the goals gemini wants to achieve.

> And I will disagree on this part, http 1.0 is actually easier to implement than the gemini protocol.

HTTP 1.0 still has multiple headers and multiple verbs. It's actually closer to HTTP 0.9. Yes, you can say "don't use those" but at some point it's good to refresh the spec and see what is and what isn't needed. Moreover HTTP is just HTTP, Gemini is transfer + encryption + client identification (through client certificates); the latter is still the wild west for the HTTP world, there is no clear set of "best practices" in this domain

Re: gemini:// space

#43

Post by II2II »

h_anna_h wrote: post #25

I don't understand why the gemini people don't just use http 1.0 (+ host) with html (or plaintext/markdown/whatever even, without js/css). Seems like a case of NIH to me. Don't get me wrong, I am not against "reinventing the wheel" for a toy project or to learn but gemini seems to have become more popular than just that. If someone is really tired of the modern web I would suggest to them a distributed alternative ra…

A big part of the reason is Gemini was developed by people interested in Gopher, acknowledged the short comings of Gopher, then thought of solutions in the context of Gopher.

Re: gemini:// space

#44

Post by progval »

amadsen wrote: post #22
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heuristics might work for longer text where the sample is large enough to uniquely identify the language, but for single words there is not enough information. If I write "coin" in my text, for example, am I using an English word, French word, or Irish word? The pronunciation varies drastically, and screenreaders have to know what to say.

My vision is good and I also don't know if the word you quoted was supposed to be in English, French of Irish? The point being, a screen reader has no more or less information than a human reader. It might be better then to invest effort in improving language inference heuristics, which would help in all applications (pdf documents, text files) than to try to build in support in each underlying protocol.

But the screen reader needs to say the word, and the pronounciation of "coin" isn't the same in every language. I don't know about Irish, but it's radically different between French and English, the only sound in common is the "k".

This means that if the screenreader picks the wrong language, then the user has to guess the spelling from the way it's pronounced to understand the text.

Though I'll concede that right now on the web it isn't much better; but that's a failing of publishing tools, not the format.

Re: gemini:// space

#45

Post by StavrosK »

microtherion wrote: post #21
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heuristics might work for longer text where the sample is large enough to uniquely identify the language, but for single words there is not enough information. If I write "coin" in my text, for example, am I using an English word, French word, or Irish word? The pronunciation varies drastically, and screenreaders have to know what to say.

My go to anecdote on this is when I returned to Switzerland after several years in the US and walked by a bakery displaying a sign advertising a "Pain Surprise". If anybody ever opens an S&M themed bakery, the problem will be accentuated.

Oh that bakery has a gimmick where they throw a loaf of bread at your face when you enter.

Re: gemini:// space

#46

Post by jai_ »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #41
prepperdev wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is covered by their FAQ: https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.html , Section 2.5 "Why not just use a subset of HTTP and HTML?"

> The problem is that deciding upon a strictly limited subset of HTTP and HTML, slapping a label on it and calling it a day would do almost nothing to create a clearly demarcated space where people can go to consume only that kind of content in only that kind of way. It's impossible to know in advance whether what's on the other side of a https:// URL will be within the subset or outside it. Not that I can't see the…

The argument isn't being technical or practical, it's being mental. It's acknowledging the fact that if you given humans a different/unfamiliar protocol they will be naturally inclined to treat it's content differently, which is the entire point.

Re: gemini:// space

#47

Post by eternalban »

microtherion wrote: post #21
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heuristics might work for longer text where the sample is large enough to uniquely identify the language, but for single words there is not enough information. If I write "coin" in my text, for example, am I using an English word, French word, or Irish word? The pronunciation varies drastically, and screenreaders have to know what to say.

My go to anecdote on this is when I returned to Switzerland after several years in the US and walked by a bakery displaying a sign advertising a "Pain Surprise". If anybody ever opens an S&M themed bakery, the problem will be accentuated.

Not strictly S&M :) but fresh out of the oven Sangak bread of Iran can offer a "pain surprise" followed by culinary pleasure! Picking those hot pebbles off the back of the flatbread on the way home in the morning is a cherished memory of my childhood in Iran.

Re: gemini:// space

#48

Post by robryk »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #12

I really like the idea of having a more bare-bones text-only web, but I can't get onboard with Gemini until it offers the same support for screenreaders as HTML. (For example, an equivalent of span lang=XX tags is missing, so if you quote a foreign-language word(s) in your text, you can't let screenreaders know what language to read it in). The visually impaired should not be second-class citizens in any new internet…

This is first I'm hearing about the lang attribute (edit: for something smaller than the whole document), so I'm curious how commonly is it used in the "web at large". Do you know?

Re: gemini:// space

#49

Post by nkoren »

microtherion wrote: post #21
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heuristics might work for longer text where the sample is large enough to uniquely identify the language, but for single words there is not enough information. If I write "coin" in my text, for example, am I using an English word, French word, or Irish word? The pronunciation varies drastically, and screenreaders have to know what to say.

My go to anecdote on this is when I returned to Switzerland after several years in the US and walked by a bakery displaying a sign advertising a "Pain Surprise". If anybody ever opens an S&M themed bakery, the problem will be accentuated.

Forwarding this to a friend of mine who owns a BDSM-themed coffeeshop...

Re: gemini:// space

#50

Post by michaelanckaert »

I've been diving head first into the Gemini space this weekend and discovered some really great content. It takes me back to web of the early 2000's where you had websites with manually curated content (webrings! link rolls!) instead of corporate milked content aggregators.

Combined with my love for minimalistic websites (hello http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/) I find Gemini a perfect small web to enjoy.

I've even started updating my static site generator to update both HTML and Gemini output.

Post reply on HN