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CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

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Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#631

Post by ativzzz »

WhompingWindows wrote: post #605
info781 wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good people want to work at places with stock options and bonuses for good performance, the government can not offer that. Government is more suited for people interested in management, not pure technical people

Speaking as a technical person who worked for government, one of the most frustrating things was not pay, I am a simple man. What was frustrating was the GARBAGE tech we had to deal with. I'm talking 5+ year old windows versions, crap peripherals and desktops, shitty offices in ugly buildings, super intermittent connections to the data that always go down, throttled data-centers by incompetent SQL pulls (I was guilty…

Fixing all those issues requires

1. competent technologists

2. competent technology managers who can communicate to the suits who are in charge of the budget that these things are needed for a functional quality tech environment

#2 is a much rarer skill than #1, and those people will get paid way more and will have to deal with way less BS working in tech companies than government positions.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#632

Post by eaton »

ethbr0 wrote: post #539
Mountain_Skies wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though mostly about ladder climbing and relationship drama, the show 'House of Lies' has some really good scenes where the management consultants do actual work, which is pretty much portrayed as doing the things you've listed. Even as a fictional show, it made it easier for me to understand these situations and not get so flustered when encountering them.

I've been in technical, not management, consulting, but House of Lies felt disturbingly accurate. Except I usually just stared at bad movies in hotel rooms to decompress after dealing with clients, rather than blow and strippers. Sue me, I'm boring.

Heh. That stuff has always felt like an inexplicably weird trope, like Hackers-inspired visions of computer people as living Mondo 2000 articles.

After 8 hours in a windowless conference room with a parade of stakeholders, making RACI matrices on a stained whiteboard and scarfing down cafeteria sandwiches during "bio-break," I want to _talk to my wife on the phone then stare blankly at the ceiling_, not go out for a night on the town.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#633

Post by blackpowder12 »

cyberpunk wrote: post #518
blackpowder12 wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the UK has done exactly this - to make all Government Digital Services in house. It's been a blockbuster success in my opinion - they have some of the best UX/UI in the world and their websites are ultralight and downgrade well. There are a few issues with authentication, but there is support. Everything that's related to dealing with the UK government btw is all in ONE website, where everything is explained to you i…

Every single GDS project I’ve been on is 90% freelancers all via a small handful of companies — it’s not really “in-house” but at least it’s better than absolutely everything going to capgemini, Fujitsu, NTT, ATOS and the like, sure.

Did not know that, still the QC of their work and overall integration of services seems world-beating to me. I had never seen anything like it.

Their UX documents and implementation are for my money some of the finest in the industry.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#634

Post by blackpowder12 »

williamdclt wrote: post #573
blackpowder12 wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the UK has done exactly this - to make all Government Digital Services in house. It's been a blockbuster success in my opinion - they have some of the best UX/UI in the world and their websites are ultralight and downgrade well. There are a few issues with authentication, but there is support. Everything that's related to dealing with the UK government btw is all in ONE website, where everything is explained to you i…

As a foreigner living in the UK, I concur. All .gov.uk are _extremely_ functional. Applying for the pre-settled status (cos Brexit) was actually an enjoyable experience! I had no idea what was going to happen when I started the process, and it was all done in 30min top. It made me _scan my passport with my smartphone_ while flashing weird colors and it worked flowlessly, that absolutely blew my mind. I've actually lo…

Yes that was some of their best work. I believe the flashing lights allow for some sort of 3D reconstruction of your face? And scanning the passport with NFC!

One of them is high-tech DYI solution, the other one is super simple yet not used at all by any other govt service I've interacted with.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#635

Post by pbhjpbhj »

baskire wrote: post #242
afavour wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone that’s been using Apple products for a few decades I don’t think I can agree that they make “for the masses, not the few”. Their market share figures would show that if that’s their aim then they are failing. IMO Apple makes premium products for a specific kind of customer and have little regard for issues like backwards compatibility. Which is absolutely fine. But probably not a model you’d want the gover…

45% of Americans use an iPhone. That would require users across the economic spectrum. https://www.statista.com/statistics/236550/percentage-of-us-...

It's users, as a percentage of mobile phone users (80% of population). So if a family have one iPhone, they can all count as users.

iPhone only bring affordable to richer people who mostly want the latest means lots of second hand items. I'll warrant Android users at the lower end keep their phones longer.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#636

Post by eaton »

arminiusreturns wrote: post #344
eaton wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd never in a million years argue that Deloitte did an awesome job on a large government contract, but it's mind-boggling to watch the regular ritual of HN posters blithely insist that anything more over $20K and a pile of pizzas for government infrastructure is a scam.

Not only do I think thats a strawman (I don't see that base level argument given that often on hn), but even if it wasn't, the truth is there is a lot, and I mean a fuckton , of money waste at the government level on IT projects. Trying to act like just because they aren't all a scam doesn't mean there isn't a systemic problem of waste that still needs to be addressed, and there are plenty of examples in even recent…

> Trying to act like just because they aren't all a scam doesn't mean there isn't a systemic problem of waste that still needs to be addressed

No, of course not. But it's undeniable that these threads on HN (and other engineering-dominated forums) always include a healthy dollop of "I'd have done that better, because I'm a good software engineer" disdain. It's often paired with ignorance of how large-scale enterprise and government contracts and procurement work, what roles are necessary for large-scale projects with a significant discovery component, and what the planning process looks like when a team can't afford to launch-and-get-feedback or fail-fast-and-learn their way to a full specification.

I mean, this Deloitte project and the rollout are clearly a shitshow on a million levels. They got a no-bid contract for an eye-popping sum, then more than doubled it before the building even started! But the approaches boldly prescribed in most of the comments here wouldn't have produced a working system at the scale needed, either — only a cheaper broken one. A cheaper failure is still a failure.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#637

Post by cratermoon »

BadInformatics wrote: post #45
et-al wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually government agencies write the contracts in a way that prevents other parties from bidding to streamline the procurement process. Now what I don't understand, is why wasn't the contract written so the state could refuse broken software, or to get a partial refund if it's doesn't meet the specifications. Someone got wined and dined pretty well. And government needs better lawyers when dealing with private contr…

In my limited experience and anecdata, governments have been so trigger happy in getting rid of and/or marginalizing technical staff that there are few qualified individuals in the procurement office who can properly draft RFPs and evaluate proposals to keep bidders accountable. What you're left with is mostly (M)BAs and admin types who can hammer out high-level Word docs of specs but not much else. In that environme…

As the old saying went, "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM".

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#638

Post by catlifeonmars »

tidepod12 wrote: post #46
didibus wrote: post #13

I just don't understand these software deals, the price is so high. At 44 million, you can hire 146 engineers each paid 300k for a full year. Trust me, you need much less to build something like this, and there's no excuse for it to suck so bad. I'm also curious, anyone know where the development actually happened? Did Deloitte further subcontracted out? Was it outsourced?

I've no love for Deloitte, but the one benefit they do have here is the ability to mobilize quickly on something like this. It's simply impossible to "hire 146 engineers" within any reasonable time frame, let alone get them all organized in a way that you can manage them effectively (and don't forget the project managers/scrum masters/etc that would need to be hired too). Deloitte, OTOH, has an entire existing busine…

It might sound crazy, but a previous team I worked on would build solutions in this exact space (public sector) in 10 weeks using one PM and 3-5 engineers. And we would do it for free.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#639

Post by tornato7 »

bob1029 wrote: post #566
info781 wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good people want to work at places with stock options and bonuses for good performance, the government can not offer that. Government is more suited for people interested in management, not pure technical people

The government absolutely could offer competitive incentive packages if the appropriate legislation can be passed. At some point it will become obvious that software complexity is a national security issue. I feel that point still hasn't arrived, for whatever reason. Perhaps the realization has arrived, but those offering the realization have biased the reports to favor themselves (i.e. Deloitte, et. al.)

Government pay scales probably end up costing them more right now anyway. I would rather hire two software engineers at $250k/yr than ten software engineers at $60k/yr. Because those ten software engineers aren't going to produce anything at all usable.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#640

Post by atlgator »

didibus wrote: post #13

I just don't understand these software deals, the price is so high. At 44 million, you can hire 146 engineers each paid 300k for a full year. Trust me, you need much less to build something like this, and there's no excuse for it to suck so bad. I'm also curious, anyone know where the development actually happened? Did Deloitte further subcontracted out? Was it outsourced?

It's Time and Materials/staff aug contracting - meaning Deloitte isn't selling an end product, they are selling staff on a per hour basis. As with other types of contracting, the hourly rate has a huge markup on it to cover indirect costs as well as profit. They make a lot less profit than you think though. Most of it is indirect costs.
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