Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#41

Post by treeman79 » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

blr246 wrote: post #38

jariel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Massive investment and ever increasing market value of abodes is generally the opposite problem of 'urban collapse' - I mean, unless the bridges are falling down, which I doubt. NYC in the late 1960's and 1970's underwent a kind of urban collapse. Detroit underwent urban collapse and never came back. I think this is maybe what the author meant by 'we don't know what this means'. If companies, middle class and power f…

We are agreeing that NYC is not at a moment of urban collapse. The processes that drives away the tax base includes policies and social and market forces that erode the city's effectiveness as a sustaining economic and social hub. The 1960s and 1970s crisis had a lot to do with the end of NYC's industrial epoch. Suburban development and globalization eliminated manufacturing and pulled workers and residents out of th…

Regular apartments were subject to rent control. Luxury were not.

So one declined, the other thrived.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#42

Post by wbc » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:57 PM UTC

sprainedankles wrote: post #2

I had never even heard of Angkor until I listened to this episode of the Fall of Civilizations podcast (I highly recommend it): https://youtu.be/ghmjIBD2Fd4 Resource management intertwined with poor leadership is a common thread in the demise of societies. Our ability to adapt to our environments is impressive, but not nearly as impressive as Mother Nature itself. I'd love if we took the hint from these histories, be…

thanks for the link! I've only heard of Khmer empire/ Jayavarman VII from civ 6, this is much more detailed!

Poor leadership is unfortunate, personally think it's just too hard for humans to plan hundreds of years out, so the rise/fall cycles are inevitable.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#43

Post by throwawaysea » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 6:01 PM UTC

Simulacra wrote: post #25

ndiscussion wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out the map here. "Serious" crime may be down, but quality of life has gone down the toilet, even in our richest cities. https://allthatsinteresting.com/san-francisco-poop-patrol Who wouldn't want to enjoy the fine scenery while stepping around HIV-infected needles and fresh poop? Ah, this hamburger tastes so much better when I get to interact with the local people while eating it - they are so quirky, they alw…

Is San Francisco a special case, though? It's a one party government that tends to tilt towards the extreme in its decision making, with an extraordinarily wealthy class of citizens, and a very difficult homeless and drug population, all compounded in a small area. I'm old. I remember San Francisco of the 80s, prosperous, wild, open armed, and beautiful. Today it's a concrete jungle with terrible management.

Seattle is pretty much the same. It retained its old Seattle credentials until the mid 2000s and then it started a rapid change politically, maybe due to a tipping point in terms of California transplants or some other such trend. Now it is a one party city with extreme (far left) politics being normalized. The effects of that are apparent daily - despite ever increasing city and state budgets, urban blight is everywhere in all the same forms as SF. The homelessness and drug abuse issues have been induced by a soft on crime local government that takes no responsibility for anything but instead uses these permanent “crises” as political leverage. The spiral of echo chamber politics dooms the city to this direction.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#44

Post by ashtonkem » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 6:02 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #8

ndiscussion wrote: post #3

Our cities won't become "lost" like Angkor. Our cities have already collapsed. There's crime, corruption, decaying buildings. Detroit looks like it was hit by a nuclear bomb. There's not enough money for two reasons. The city overspends on everything due to contract corruption and misled ideals. The money doesn't go where it needs to go, and when it goes to the wrong place, it's like a black hole. The second reason i…

Crime, corruption and decaying buildings were much more prominent in NYC of the 1970s than NYC of today. Or Chicago in the 1960s than Chicago of today. Or Boston in the 1920s vs. Boston today. The problem with this explanation - even though it sounds reasonable - is that it lacks predictive power. There's always crime, corruption, and decay, because whenever large groups of people come together there's crime, corrupt…

Also, American cities on average continue to gain population, not lose them. Even cities that are derided as “decaying”, like NYC.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#45

Post by throwawaysea » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 6:06 PM UTC

cronix wrote: post #28

I know what it looks like; I live in Portland, Oregon. In 4 years, we went from 3rd most desirable city, to 66th. They're facing a 17% budget shortfall and are getting rid of people in the permitting department which means it will take longer to get permits for new construction. We are in desperate need of high density, cheap apartments. We have a housing crisis. https://www.wweek.com/news/2021/01/20/a-key-indicator-…

Portland had amazing potential with its art and food culture. It’s really sad to see it fall apart for very predictable reasons. I imagine that all the violence in the name of politics and the homelessness/drug abuse issue will crater tourism. Once the Pearl District loses its draw, other parts of the city will feel the domino effects as well.

But how can anyone help? There’s no avenue for intervention in a city where constituents (and the homeless voting bloc) keep voting for increasingly fringe party and politics. The hostility and outright violence towards anyone who is even center-left means people are more likely to leave than spend years fighting a battle to save the city.

And once the city falls apart economically, the political grifters will simply move to the next big successful city and damage it in the same way.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#46

Post by Hadrianus » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #39

ndiscussion wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out the map here. "Serious" crime may be down, but quality of life has gone down the toilet, even in our richest cities. https://allthatsinteresting.com/san-francisco-poop-patrol Who wouldn't want to enjoy the fine scenery while stepping around HIV-infected needles and fresh poop? Ah, this hamburger tastes so much better when I get to interact with the local people while eating it - they are so quirky, they alw…

Question, where would you poop if you were homeless?

Over a trash can, bury it in a hole in a park, carry a small bag with me to throw away, in a bucket, at a library or other public building, in a park toilet, at a Target..

Literally anywhere other than the public thoroughfare or someone’s stoop.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#47

Post by burntoutfire » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 6:21 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #8

ndiscussion wrote: post #3

Our cities won't become "lost" like Angkor. Our cities have already collapsed. There's crime, corruption, decaying buildings. Detroit looks like it was hit by a nuclear bomb. There's not enough money for two reasons. The city overspends on everything due to contract corruption and misled ideals. The money doesn't go where it needs to go, and when it goes to the wrong place, it's like a black hole. The second reason i…

Crime, corruption and decaying buildings were much more prominent in NYC of the 1970s than NYC of today. Or Chicago in the 1960s than Chicago of today. Or Boston in the 1920s vs. Boston today. The problem with this explanation - even though it sounds reasonable - is that it lacks predictive power. There's always crime, corruption, and decay, because whenever large groups of people come together there's crime, corrupt…

> But for this to be the cause of collapse, you need to explain how cities can have high levels of crime, corruption, and decaying buildings and then recover back to lower levels of crime, corrupion, and decaying buildings.

This sounds like a perspective of someone who's lived their entire life in the US. Meanwhile, here in Poland, you can have relatively large metro areas (Warsaw + suburbs is probably over 2 million people at this point) with barely any discernible crime - certainly not enough that it's anyone's radar as a social problem. When I was younger I was always puzzled why the american comic books focus so much on fighting crime (Batman, Punisher etc.) - now I understand that it IS actually a real problem in the US.

I wonder why crime never took on in Poland, even though we have clearly way fewer economic opportunities and the state-provided social support is worse than in the US (with the exception of free health care). One argument that comes to my mind is the almost complete lack of drugs over here. In Poland, if someone is keen on destroying their life via a substance dependence, they always go for alcohol, which I guess is much cheaper than drugs, so it creates way less criminals. That can't be the whole explanation though.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#48

Post by pnutjam » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 6:32 PM UTC

treeman79 wrote: post #41

blr246 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are agreeing that NYC is not at a moment of urban collapse. The processes that drives away the tax base includes policies and social and market forces that erode the city's effectiveness as a sustaining economic and social hub. The 1960s and 1970s crisis had a lot to do with the end of NYC's industrial epoch. Suburban development and globalization eliminated manufacturing and pulled workers and residents out of th…

Regular apartments were subject to rent control. Luxury were not. So one declined, the other thrived.

Explain why they only build luxury apartments in the Midwest too. You're analysis is faulty.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#49

Post by nostrademons » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 6:37 PM UTC

burntoutfire wrote: post #47

nostrademons wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crime, corruption and decaying buildings were much more prominent in NYC of the 1970s than NYC of today. Or Chicago in the 1960s than Chicago of today. Or Boston in the 1920s vs. Boston today. The problem with this explanation - even though it sounds reasonable - is that it lacks predictive power. There's always crime, corruption, and decay, because whenever large groups of people come together there's crime, corrupt…

> But for this to be the cause of collapse, you need to explain how cities can have high levels of crime, corruption, and decaying buildings and then recover back to lower levels of crime, corrupion, and decaying buildings. This sounds like a perspective of someone who's lived their entire life in the US. Meanwhile, here in Poland, you can have relatively large metro areas (Warsaw + suburbs is probably over 2 million…

I should probably say "large groups of disparate people". Ethnic homogeneity makes everything easier. American gun laws probably don't help either, but there are non-American cities - Sarajevo, South Africa, much of Europe after the Syrian migration crisis - that struggle with crime too, and there seems to be a correlation there.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#50

Post by benjohnson » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 6:46 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #39

ndiscussion wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out the map here. "Serious" crime may be down, but quality of life has gone down the toilet, even in our richest cities. https://allthatsinteresting.com/san-francisco-poop-patrol Who wouldn't want to enjoy the fine scenery while stepping around HIV-infected needles and fresh poop? Ah, this hamburger tastes so much better when I get to interact with the local people while eating it - they are so quirky, they alw…

Question, where would you poop if you were homeless?

When hiking in the woods, we dig a small hole and cover up. I don’t recommend doing that in a city park, but certainly better than pooping where kids walk to school.