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Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

theatlantic.com

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Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#31

Post by medium_burrito »

marcinzm wrote: post #4
ndiscussion wrote: post #3

Our cities won't become "lost" like Angkor. Our cities have already collapsed. There's crime, corruption, decaying buildings. Detroit looks like it was hit by a nuclear bomb. There's not enough money for two reasons. The city overspends on everything due to contract corruption and misled ideals. The money doesn't go where it needs to go, and when it goes to the wrong place, it's like a black hole. The second reason i…

>With increased crime, corruption, and decay, the taxpayers leave (NYC). Do you have numbers to back that up? Pre-COVID. Personal income tax numbers have increased until 2018 (last year I can find) which indicates that taxpayers were coming in rather than leaving.

I agree with the other commenter that it's a boiling point issue. Things looked ok at the surface but...

- rising cost of living, propelled by foreign investment in housing, pricing out even upper middle class

- more taxes

- more crime, and less policing

- shitty schools

As soon as you don't need to be in the expensive city for work, it's like hmmm, why the hell am I putting up with this? People with kids may be slightly less flexible, but anybody young and single can basically move very easily. People forget that companies can move easily too.

In terms of amenities, city governments forget that the whole microbrewery/dispensary/expensive coffee shops/hot yoga/avocado toast ecosystem has basically been franchised out at this point and is trivial to stand up anywhere. Sure, it's not an opera house in Manaus, but lots of cheap places in the US have more culture than Bellevue or San Jose.

Expensive cities will argue people will return, and sure, some will, unless the city is too dangerous and completely broke from the tax base leaving. If you are young and single, and want to be around other young single people, and let's say a little midwest spot becomes hip and has the basics, and lots of people move there, you don't really need NYC (at least not everybody). And $500/month rent for a nice 1 bedroom (or a mortgage) is appealing.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#32

Post by medium_burrito »

cronix wrote: post #28

I know what it looks like; I live in Portland, Oregon. In 4 years, we went from 3rd most desirable city, to 66th. They're facing a 17% budget shortfall and are getting rid of people in the permitting department which means it will take longer to get permits for new construction. We are in desperate need of high density, cheap apartments. We have a housing crisis. https://www.wweek.com/news/2021/01/20/a-key-indicator-…

I have several good friends living in Portland, who grew up there, who work in a variety of non-software areas doing artsy cool shit, all in their 30s. They are all planning on leaving this year as their leases expired.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#33

Post by fmajid »

Then there is Saint Louis, Missouri, that lost its claim to be the capital of the Midwest to Chicago because they neglected their infrastructure, just as Bruges went from major economic center to quaint historic town because they let their canal to Zeebrugge silt down, impairing their access to the sea.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#34

Post by Bradlinc »

cronix wrote: post #28

I know what it looks like; I live in Portland, Oregon. In 4 years, we went from 3rd most desirable city, to 66th. They're facing a 17% budget shortfall and are getting rid of people in the permitting department which means it will take longer to get permits for new construction. We are in desperate need of high density, cheap apartments. We have a housing crisis. https://www.wweek.com/news/2021/01/20/a-key-indicator-…

I lived in Portland from 2001 to 2007. In the early 2000s I occasionally saw poop on the sidewalks and it felt to me the homeliness was confined to certain areas. I went back last June and was shocked about how the homeliness problem had grown. The city also had become very dirty. But to me the largest change was how vacant the streets felt. I am sure COVID was part of this as was flawed memory but it was a pretty summer day and no one was out.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#35

Post by fumblebee »

Last year I was working in Midtown, Manhattan. It was a normal day just like any other, except when I arrived at my desk there were tens of shocked colleagues looking down to the street below. It transpired that a piece of the facade on the old, brick walled building opposite had somehow dislodged, fell, and ended someone's life who was walking by. Her body remained there during the day because it was too dangerous to remove it. For obvious reasons, this was traumatic.

My instinct tells me NYC will not suffer from the mass abandonment that the article refers to, but it needs a tremendous investment to avoid further rot. Modern skyscrapers are a bandaid over the scores of ill fated and fragile buildings and infrastructure NYC is home to.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#36

Post by CharlesW »

VLM wrote: post #14

The point of the article is to normalize that "americans" is synonymous with "urban new yorkers" and the rest of the population doesn't count. Clearly, rural mining ghost towns are familiar with the concept of slowly shutting down a boomtown. See also the rust belt cities which were de-industrialized about three generations ago, and continue a slow decline, or at least slower growth than the rest of the country, sinc…

> The point of the article is to normalize that "americans" is synonymous with "urban new yorkers" and the rest of the population doesn't count.

I RTFA and it absolutely does not do this or even imply it. "Urban collapse" is right there in the title, so it'd be odd if the article talked about rural collapse.

You and/or your family were clearly hurt by rural collapse, and I'm sorry for your pain. Having grown up in rural Iowa, I know that seeing rural communities and towns wither away sucks in its own way.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#37

Post by babesh »

diplomatpuppy wrote: post #15
tyleo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say, “Detroit looks like it was hit by a nuclear bomb.” What are you referring to? I’d love if you could share a link. Out of curiosity I searched images of Detroit after reading your comment but couldn’t find anything like what you describe.

Theres also the snarky meme that Hiroshima is in better shape now 70 years after having a nuclear bomb dropped on it than Detroit is after 70 years of bad governance. https://www.reddit.com/r/libertarianmeme/comments/3qv79l/hir...

Have been to Hiroshima. It is a pretty city by Japanese standards. Green paths along the river unlike Tokyo’s concrete. Much more laid back than Tokyo.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#38

Post by blr246 »

jariel wrote: post #18
blr246 wrote: post #5

>Instead, what kills cities is a long period in which their leaders fail to reckon honestly with ongoing, everyday problems—how workers are treated, whether infrastructure is repaired. Unsustainable, unresponsive governance in the face of long-term challenges may not look like a world-historical problem, but it’s the real threat that cities face. The feels correct to me. I lived in New York City for 15 years. Until l…

Massive investment and ever increasing market value of abodes is generally the opposite problem of 'urban collapse' - I mean, unless the bridges are falling down, which I doubt. NYC in the late 1960's and 1970's underwent a kind of urban collapse. Detroit underwent urban collapse and never came back. I think this is maybe what the author meant by 'we don't know what this means'. If companies, middle class and power f…

We are agreeing that NYC is not at a moment of urban collapse. The processes that drives away the tax base includes policies and social and market forces that erode the city's effectiveness as a sustaining economic and social hub.

The 1960s and 1970s crisis had a lot to do with the end of NYC's industrial epoch. Suburban development and globalization eliminated manufacturing and pulled workers and residents out of the city. The recovery of NYC was bringing high-value services, retail, and tourism back along with arts and culture.

In the time since, NYC has become increasingly a luxury experience, which is indeed part of its strength but also its weakness, since it accelerates decline when people can up and leave without having roots.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#39

Post by imtringued »

ndiscussion wrote: post #17
gspr wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our cities have already collapsed. Pardon me, but that's the dumbest thing I've read so far in 2021. > There's crime Broadly speaking, there's less serious crime than in a long time. > corruption Do cities have more corruption than society in general? > decaying buildings Are city buildings in a particularly bad state? > Detroit looks like it was hit by a nuclear bomb. Detroit has become famous for precisely that,…

Check out the map here. "Serious" crime may be down, but quality of life has gone down the toilet, even in our richest cities. https://allthatsinteresting.com/san-francisco-poop-patrol Who wouldn't want to enjoy the fine scenery while stepping around HIV-infected needles and fresh poop? Ah, this hamburger tastes so much better when I get to interact with the local people while eating it - they are so quirky, they alw…

Question, where would you poop if you were homeless?

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#40

Post by gilbetron »

tyleo wrote: post #7
ndiscussion wrote: post #3

Our cities won't become "lost" like Angkor. Our cities have already collapsed. There's crime, corruption, decaying buildings. Detroit looks like it was hit by a nuclear bomb. There's not enough money for two reasons. The city overspends on everything due to contract corruption and misled ideals. The money doesn't go where it needs to go, and when it goes to the wrong place, it's like a black hole. The second reason i…

When you say, “Detroit looks like it was hit by a nuclear bomb.” What are you referring to? I’d love if you could share a link. Out of curiosity I searched images of Detroit after reading your comment but couldn’t find anything like what you describe.

It's slowly getting better, but a lot of it can be real bad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTKEx0N0DCY

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