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Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

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Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#161

Post by reader_mode »

thatguy0900 wrote: post #62
reader_mode wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very narrative driven world view. The problem with UBI is that some jobs suck but need to be done, and if you set a guaranteed income for doing nothing the incentive for doing that job suddenly needs to be a lot higher to compete. Saying that it's just the capital owners is ridiculous - consider for eg. elderly care - good luck living in with your demented mother who needs assistance to perform even the basi…

So poor people need to exist because otherwise we wouldn't be able to force people to do things we ourselves wouldnt want to do? And if they are not poor they would stop being in awful servitude jobs noone wants? I guess it just sucks to be born poor then, too bad we can't help them

Poor is a loose term.

Someone working basic job in a nursing home isn't necessarily poor - in the sense they can afford some standard of living on their income. If you add the option for them to receive 1/2 or even 1/3 of income but have to do nothing - now doing the job they would do previously to avoid poverty would probably take more money to do. And the people who get screwed are the ones who were barely able to afford their services before.

Every job I needed to do in my early life sucked and I would do none of them if someone gave me 1/3 of the income and stay at home with my parents and play video games and code for leasure. I would probably never even take that level of job (factory line work, industrial work, farm work, entry level sales shit). Multiply that by a huge fraction of the population and you seriously destabilise the economy.

Some jobs can be outsourced (like manufacturing) so it's not that big of a deal - but some jobs like for eg. elderly care, etc. are labor intensive and not easily outsourced. And everyone needs them.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#162

Post by reader_mode »

gtsop wrote: post #88
aww_dang wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of the day most people don't want to work, but the option to be paid for not working isn't available. We all dislike working to some extent. Otherwise we would do it for free, as a hobby. There are some low paid jobs people choose out of passion or interest. There are also bottom rung jobs that beginners with no job skills can enter. Think about people with no language skills, don't they deserve a chance t…

> At the end of the day most people don't want to work [...] We all dislike working to some extent. Where did you get that from? I really think the opposite is true.

>Where did you get that from? I really think the opposite is true.

Have you ever worked in a factory, on a farm, etc. on bottom level positions ? Most people would take the money and do nothing without blinking. Hell even a bunch of my college friends would skip years of their life playing games and acquiring 0 life experience if someone gave them this option the only thing that forced them to go out in the world was existential need (as demonstrated by two guys I know who are well off and their parents allowed them to do nothing - one guy has 0 days working experience at 30, he was a top tier COD gamer)

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#163

Post by reader_mode »

true_religion wrote: post #70
reader_mode wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very narrative driven world view. The problem with UBI is that some jobs suck but need to be done, and if you set a guaranteed income for doing nothing the incentive for doing that job suddenly needs to be a lot higher to compete. Saying that it's just the capital owners is ridiculous - consider for eg. elderly care - good luck living in with your demented mother who needs assistance to perform even the basi…

I recently went through my mothers health failing and then subsequent death. If I didn’t have to work, I absolutely would have cared for her myself. However, there is no way I could have quit working and keep the house in a relatively expensive area that I bought to be close to job opportunities. UBI changes the calculus dramatically. Suddenly you can just do things for yourself .

Unless your job is pointless - you quitting your job to take care of your mother is a net loss for the economy and again makes things less accessible for everyone - nursing homes are an optimisation.

It sounds nice to give people the option but your argument is exactly why substantial UBI is a dangerous concept.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#164

Post by reader_mode »

antonzabirko wrote: post #99
reader_mode wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very narrative driven world view. The problem with UBI is that some jobs suck but need to be done, and if you set a guaranteed income for doing nothing the incentive for doing that job suddenly needs to be a lot higher to compete. Saying that it's just the capital owners is ridiculous - consider for eg. elderly care - good luck living in with your demented mother who needs assistance to perform even the basi…

On the flip side, UBI will increase the revenue from those jobs. The less desirable jobs will pay more simply due to supply and demand.

Possibly - but I doubt it will be proportional for the undesirable jobs. It would be a volatile transition period either way.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#165

Post by tacitusarc »

slg wrote: post #132
syshum wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fairness is treating everyone equally, the fact you put that in quotes is concerning... Further it is not just people that have paid off college debt or are past the stage where are concerned about college debt.. Many people worked their ass off to become good at a trade or other profession with out incurring college debt, why should we then have to pay increased taxes to pay of those that bought into the college lie…

Let’s say you are at a family reunion and want to play a game of baseball with everyone. Is it “fair” to have the same rules for the 6 year old child and the 25 year old who used to play on his high school baseball team? More likely you would tweak the rules a little or pitch a little slower to the kid so everyone has fun and can fully participate. Sometimes fairness means leveling the playing field so everyone can c…

Absolutely it would be fair to have the same rules for everyone, regardless if they were 6 or 25 or 70 or a professional player, once the players are in the game. It might be _mean_ to treat the six year old like the 25 year old, but it would be fair. It would, however, potentially be unfair to put them in the same game in the first place, especially if there were alternatives.

Meanness and unfairness are two different things.

Especially in a family setting, sometimes niceness can Trump fairness.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#166

Post by aww_dang »

Simulacra wrote: post #128

I'm not an economist so I would really appreciate insight into a thought I've had about UBI. Let's say your rent is $1,000 per month, and the government began a universal basic income program of $500 per month for everyone. If your landlord raises your rent by $500, are you not in the same position as you were before without the UBI? I ask this because my argument with a UBI is that it will create more money in the s…

>are you not in the same position as you were before without the UBI?

No, now you are dependent upon the government to pay for your inflated rent. Naturally, when $500 is eaten up by price inflation, UBI proponents will demand a commensurate increase. It is easy to see how this could spiral into total dependence.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#167

Post by wpietri »

erik_seaberg wrote: post #96
wpietri wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think we'll run out of things for people to do? The history of the last 500 years or so suggests that when old jobs get optimized out of existence, there's still plenty that needs doing. When I look around, I definitely don't see a society with no unfilled needs, so I expect we can keep going quite a spell.

We've mostly run out of things for horses to do, which is why we don't see so many anymore. Automation took longer but it's getting pretty close for a lot of simple jobs at the same time.

You appear to be just repeating the claim I'm challenging.

We've automated away all the simple jobs many times over. Almost all of agriculture, for example. Almost any job in the first industrial revolution. Practically any job that is embedded in a last name: Smith, Potter, Cooper, Mason, Taylor, Wright, Fletcher, Ward, Weaver, Chandler.

But again, look around you: is this a world with nothing left to do?

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#168

Post by randomdata »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #156
randomdata wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't pay income tax at tax time, it gets withheld from your paycheck on an ongoing basis. You're shrinking the window down from a year, but does it change anything other than you might be able to get by for a couple of weeks easier than an entire year if your income dries up? Assuming monthly payments, and a loss of income on March 1st, I'm still under the impression that UBI will give you $1,000 to spend as o…

One way to do income tax would be that if you get paid $60,000 then your employer gives you $60,000 and at the end of the year you have to cut a check to the IRS for e.g. $18,000. The problem with this is that if you give people $60,000 then a lot of them spend all $60,000 and come tax time they don't have the tax money and you need to start having tax debtors prisons or something. The analogous thing for a UBI would…

> There is no reason in principle that they couldn't do this as soon as you fill out the paperwork, i.e. on March 1st the instant you lose your other job and become a sole proprietor with no income.

But you won't really know if March is going to be income-less until it is over. On March 1st I may still be hopeful that tomorrow will be a better day. Soon it is the 31st and I realize I didn't make anything. You're still dependent on hindsight, no? Whereas UBI fronts the money and then if March 15th provided me a major windfall, I can give it back.

We can shrink the period even further. Let's say a day. If you cannot find a source of income on March 1st, you can submit the paperwork at the end of the day. But you're still looking to the past, whereas UBI would give you the money first and then adjust accordingly in the future. In the real world there is always going to be some kind of lag to the time to filing the paper work. There isn't a constant stream of conscious delivered to the tax man. And reporting daily is a huge amount of overhead for someone. I cannot imagine in practice that it would be practical to provide such reporting more often than a weekly/bi-weekly schedule at the very most. The length of period doesn't actually matter here, though. The logic is exactly the same if you report every second or only once per year.

I'm afraid I'm still not seeing how a negative income tax can ever provide you the money before you know what your income is (the past). In contrast, UBI assumes you will have no income and then is clawed back if that assumption is false (the future). That is not just framing, there is a practical difference in the real world as far as I can see in your examples.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#169

Post by tacitusarc »

tacitusarc wrote: post #165
slg wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s say you are at a family reunion and want to play a game of baseball with everyone. Is it “fair” to have the same rules for the 6 year old child and the 25 year old who used to play on his high school baseball team? More likely you would tweak the rules a little or pitch a little slower to the kid so everyone has fun and can fully participate. Sometimes fairness means leveling the playing field so everyone can c…

Absolutely it would be fair to have the same rules for everyone, regardless if they were 6 or 25 or 70 or a professional player, once the players are in the game. It might be _mean_ to treat the six year old like the 25 year old, but it would be fair. It would, however, potentially be unfair to put them in the same game in the first place, especially if there were alternatives. Meanness and unfairness are two differe…

My phone apparently autocorrected trump and capitalized it, and I didn't notice. An unfortunate impact of the former administration.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#170

Post by syshum »

slg wrote: post #153
syshum wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that is another bad analogy, and while I do find all income taxation to be unethical marginalize tax rates are not treating people differently, they are treating incomes differently. To treat people differently you would have to start basing income tax rates on characteristics of a person, such as race, sexual identity, age or height (like in your previous analogy) Saying all income from 0-50000 is tax X, and in…

>To treat people differently you would have to start basing income tax rates on characteristics of a person, such as race, sexual identity, age or height (like in your previous analogy) Characteristics like their marriage status, the number of children they have, the status of their home, their status as a student, or even the specific example you used of age which is tied to all sorts of taxation issues? Although I'…

And I disagree with all of these. Government should not treat people differently based on age, martial status, how many kids they have, or age
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