Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#881

Post by anticensor » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 4:37 AM UTC

conradev wrote: post #676

zaroth wrote: post #666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But why? Matrix is tiny and no threat to Google services. There is an absolutely unprecedented shift going on as we speak, one of those groundswell events that have the potential to shift usage habits of hundreds of millions of people. We got a taste just recently with the shift away from WhatsApp based on a TOS update . Imagine arguing last year that ten million users would jump ship based on a TOS change? Matrix,…

Google has no (competitive) horse in the messenger race, so while that theory might fit your ideological point of view, I don’t understand why Google itself would have any incentive (or grounds) to remove an open source chat app. How is Matrix a threat to Google?

Discord, a huge chat software, is hosted on Google Cloud. This might help explain why they tried to kill Element, a client for Matrix, a competing chat software with similar targeted user base.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#882

Post by throwaway3699 » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 4:42 AM UTC

orthecreedence wrote: post #745

throwaway3699 wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm think GP is missing an /s :)

Actually not! I think capitalism always trends towards centralization of power. I went fishing for "actually, this isn't a free market because..." and caught me a big one.

Pure capitalism (anarchy) is just people exchanging things via barter. Government is generally to blame when things get too centralised (either by fiddling the market or by not enforcing antitrust).

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#883

Post by cma » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 4:51 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #298

cma wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like the first step to kicking out competing web browsers, if the browsers don't moderate what you browse.

"Don't Be Evil" - Looks like the roots of Google are far behind them now.

Unless 30% of your traffic is AMP, your browser gets a demerit.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#884

Post by olefoo » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 4:52 AM UTC

js4ever wrote: post #238

It seems all those deplatforming started really recently with trump/parler and turned into a witch hunt. It's now totally out of control and we start to look like CCP

In the wake of an unprecedented attack on the core institutions of a democracy; forums and websites that were being used to plot violence against lawmakers are discovering that all available sources of pressure on them to change their behavior are being exercised?

The Parler dudes are just lucky that they haven't been arrested for material support of terrorism yet.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#885

Post by orthecreedence » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 4:56 AM UTC

throwaway3699 wrote: post #882

orthecreedence wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually not! I think capitalism always trends towards centralization of power. I went fishing for "actually, this isn't a free market because..." and caught me a big one.

Pure capitalism (anarchy) is just people exchanging things via barter. Government is generally to blame when things get too centralised (either by fiddling the market or by not enforcing antitrust).

> Pure capitalism (anarchy) is just people exchanging things via barter.

Anarchy and capitalism are two extremely different things, and also there are methods of free association (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_association_(Marxism_and_...) that allow for distributed production without any centralization OR private ownership of production/profit-driven exchange.

Granted, we're far off from these things probably, but capitalism is turning out to be a steaming pile of shit so it's good to think about what comes after without turning into a centrally-planned hell hole.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#886

Post by behringer » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:01 AM UTC

stjohnswarts wrote: post #864

Arathorn wrote: post #857

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UPDATE: I just got a call from a VP at Google who apologised for the bad communication around this and explained the situation, which related to some extremely abusive content which was accessible on the default matrix.org homeserver. We don't want to go into specifics, but suffice it to say that it's not related to WallStreet Bets or anything like that, but instead is the sort of thing that causes you to get locked…

But I can visit sites and do things in chrome that will get me locked up for life as well yet it's still on my phone.

A better analogy might be your ISP blocking google.com because of heinous content visible on the search screen. Yeah it would be weird, but I doubt anybody would have a real problem with that happening.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#887

Post by cutemonster » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:27 AM UTC

panarky wrote: post #785

tabbott wrote: post #702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really upset that this happened to you folks, and it's scary, because incident could just as easily have happened to us at Zulip (or any other OSS app that connects to self-hosted servers!). I expect we'll never get a useful explanation from Google for why this incident happened -- abuse teams, like fraud teams, are worried about the bad guys using the explanations to tune their tactics and so tend to never expla…

If you accept that (1) there is a substantial amount of mal-content that Google should censor, and (2) a key use case for federated messaging platforms is to evade censorship, and that (3) client applications can be functionally part of a federated messaging platform while legally separate from it, then those client applications are fair game to be censored when they deliver mal-content. Now I may disagree with parts…

> (2) a key use case for federated messaging platforms is to evade censorship

For some people (although maybe comparatively few) it's primarily about building a more robust Internet that works also if centralized service(s) disappear

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#888

Post by unethical_ban » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:38 AM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #693

unethical_ban wrote: post #399

Don't forget that F-Droid is a thing, and Android still has at least that much freedom - to install your own software. Who would have thought 30 years ago someone would be saying "People can run any code they want on their computer" as a shocking thing.

I use the app to chat with my mom. My mom is not going to install F-Droid or whatever. This comment reminds me of the famous dropbox comment on HN.

There was a time when people did click a download link. Installing APKs are easier than fiddling with most app settings. Think of how Fortnite was distributed via APK when Epic was big enough to tell people how to do it.

I don't deny the utility of app stores. My point was about the freedom of platform at a capability level.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#889

Post by shakna » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:39 AM UTC

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #874

stjohnswarts wrote: post #864

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I can visit sites and do things in chrome that will get me locked up for life as well yet it's still on my phone.

Element, the matrix protocol, and matrix.org are all tightly linked together. Matrix.org is the default server in Element. With them so interconnected, I understand why matrix.org issues would affect Element.

Not that tightly linked. Whilst the Element client does offer Matrix.org as a signup/login as the first page you see, you're also just one single click from signup/login to any of the other servers. Nothing about that page really feels locked or branded to matrix.org.

I don't see how that makes Element responsible for matrix.org content. Thunderbird offers getting an email address via gandi.net in their new account page. Does that mean that Mozilla is suddenly responsible for all emails (like spam) coming out of gandi?

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#890

Post by INTPenis » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:47 AM UTC

stjohnswarts wrote: post #864

Arathorn wrote: post #857

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UPDATE: I just got a call from a VP at Google who apologised for the bad communication around this and explained the situation, which related to some extremely abusive content which was accessible on the default matrix.org homeserver. We don't want to go into specifics, but suffice it to say that it's not related to WallStreet Bets or anything like that, but instead is the sort of thing that causes you to get locked…

But I can visit sites and do things in chrome that will get me locked up for life as well yet it's still on my phone.

You could also load the webbased element client in Chrome and use Matrix in Chrome. In theory at least, not sure how it holds up on mobile but you can definitely use it in Chrome desktop browser.