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Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

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Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#871

Post by [deleted] »

conradev wrote: post #676
zaroth wrote: post #666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But why? Matrix is tiny and no threat to Google services. There is an absolutely unprecedented shift going on as we speak, one of those groundswell events that have the potential to shift usage habits of hundreds of millions of people. We got a taste just recently with the shift away from WhatsApp based on a TOS update . Imagine arguing last year that ten million users would jump ship based on a TOS change? Matrix,…

Google has no (competitive) horse in the messenger race, so while that theory might fit your ideological point of view, I don’t understand why Google itself would have any incentive (or grounds) to remove an open source chat app. How is Matrix a threat to Google?

[deleted]

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#872

Post by NotChina »

skynet-9000 wrote: post #803
panarky wrote: post #785

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you accept that (1) there is a substantial amount of mal-content that Google should censor, and (2) a key use case for federated messaging platforms is to evade censorship, and that (3) client applications can be functionally part of a federated messaging platform while legally separate from it, then those client applications are fair game to be censored when they deliver mal-content. Now I may disagree with parts…

While we're at it, should we ban email apps as well? And probably the Internet itself and go back to "safe" walled gardens like AOL, since there are almost certainly bad people on the net?

We try to rationalize this when it affects apps we don't use. But censorship is a very slippery slope. No single company should have this level of power. Browsers will be next. Solidarity is the only answer to abuses as such. Shade Freud always begets irony.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#873

Post by NotChina »

LocalH wrote: post #850
panarky wrote: post #785

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you accept that (1) there is a substantial amount of mal-content that Google should censor, and (2) a key use case for federated messaging platforms is to evade censorship, and that (3) client applications can be functionally part of a federated messaging platform while legally separate from it, then those client applications are fair game to be censored when they deliver mal-content. Now I may disagree with parts…

By that logic, web browsers are not functionally separate from the federated Web, so all browsers should be banned until they start blocking objectionable sites.

The future: "it's the Internet Jim, but not as we know it" -Spock

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#874

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #864
Arathorn wrote: post #857

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UPDATE: I just got a call from a VP at Google who apologised for the bad communication around this and explained the situation, which related to some extremely abusive content which was accessible on the default matrix.org homeserver. We don't want to go into specifics, but suffice it to say that it's not related to WallStreet Bets or anything like that, but instead is the sort of thing that causes you to get locked…

But I can visit sites and do things in chrome that will get me locked up for life as well yet it's still on my phone.

Element, the matrix protocol, and matrix.org are all tightly linked together. Matrix.org is the default server in Element. With them so interconnected, I understand why matrix.org issues would affect Element.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#875

Post by mrec »

eternalban wrote: post #837
mrec wrote: post #780

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's literally twos of us!

I am making an effort to also revert back to keeping physical notebooks. I have a mini library of notebooks that stop at 1996. That year I bought a power pc (for Java) and the record of my thoughts are spread over various boxes, legacy media, and buried deep in nested directories. It was a mistake, in retrospect.

My handwriting is far too bad for physical notebooks ever to be an option.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#876

Post by setr »

panarky wrote: post #863
setr wrote: post #854

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it’s not — it’s pointing out that those arguments fail when looking at existing systems, and would trivially deny things that we know we want. A slippery slope would be that the reasoning lends itself to more extreme reasoning down the line. You don’t need to bother with that here, we’re already arguing from the bottom of the slope. This simply argues that they’re special-casing against non-established systems — i…

My assertion was a narrow one: the client application of a network designed to avoid censorship of bad actors is not exactly as legitimate as a web browser that is not designed to avoid censorship of bad actors. To go from that narrow assertion to "ban email apps and probably the Internet itself" is fallacious reasoning at its finest. There's no rebuttal by refuting any of the premises or finding logical flaws, just…

> the client application of a network designed to avoid censorship of bad actors

You didn’t argue this, and I’m not clear that matrix or similar technology makes any direct, intended or significant effort to do so beyond the much broader, all-encompassing goal of “let nothing be unavailable”. But if true, I might be more inclined to agree with you.

What you did argue is that

    a key use case for federated messaging platforms is to evade censorship
Which is wholly different, in that the usage is at fault, not the protocol in and of itself (in the same fashion that Bitcoin was not designed to facilitate drug trade, even if it’s a key use case driving its valuation).

But we also know that illegal activity is a key use case of the internet, of email, of encryption and a wide variety of other decentralized and federated technologies. This is hardly a good justification because you’ll ban all sorts of good things.

The only thing that protects your argument against everything else is that you arbitrarily limit it to non-established technologies — in the name of all that is good and wholesome, you would kill anything like the internet, email, etc, that is not itself the existing technologies.

A web browser is only more legitimate because the internet is more broadly used. Which isn’t much of a case for legitimacy.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#877

Post by exikyut »

morsch wrote: post #630
exikyut wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The non-root way to silently update is to install a DPC (device policy controller). Has existed for the past 10 years to support enterprise MDM. Only catch is that to install the DPC you have to factory reset your phone to place it into the special state where no accounts have "ever" been signed in to, which is what allows a DPC to be installed. (Removing all accounts from the device may also work) The nice thing is…

Is that something I can do to my phone to make updates via F-Droid more seamless?

Sadly no. I actually went full-on "wait a minute...!" a few weeks ago when I discovered this, but practically speaking, nobody's going to do it ("what, factory reset my phone?! hahaha NO"), and so implementing the necessary support would ultimately be a giant burden.

Technically 100% possible, but practically never going to happen.

If someone were willing to write and maintain the necessary plumbing and then poked F-Droid, it would be interesting to see if they cooperated, but they may well be reluctant to.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#878

Post by conradev »

conradev wrote: post #671
alex_reg wrote: post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably not a coincidence or an oversight, but rather a "what can we get away with" attempt, similar to previous efforts to remove UBlock Origin. But why? Matrix is tiny and no threat to Google services. I'd personally expect three letter agencies to be involved here. The US government has been aggressively going after encrypted communication for years, with extreme tactics like personal intimidation and sec…

This seems like a classic case of Hanlon’s razor and I don’t see any evidence to the contrary (yet). An NSL would be handled a lot differently than removing an app from a single app store for sexual content. Every indication so far points to it being a mistake by Google. From less than a week ago: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/01/googles-bots-decide-...

aaand https://twitter.com/element_hq/status/1355663753380032512

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#879

Post by Thorentis »

monopoledance wrote: post #648
Thorentis wrote: post #317

This is basically the last straw for me. The past week has made it perfectly clear that Big Tech will close the circle and protect their own. Anything that appears to be censorship resistant, that allows the little guy to get ahead and compete, or that allows individuals to have greater levels of privacy and freedom, will be shut down and de-platformed. As was predicted in 1948, "hate speech" has just become a smoke…

> This is basically the last straw for me. Now you're just out of straws, or pulled the trigger on some decision? What's the implication?

I have been actively trying to distance myself from unnecessary technology, and especially that which is owned and controlled by Big Tech. I now use a "dumbphone". I have begun slowly migrating to ProtonMail. I have already been using Linux as a main OS on desktop. I do still use a Macbook Pro only because the 2015 version I have just won't die (touch wood), but my next laptop purchase would be with the aim of installing Linux (high-end Thinkpad perhaps). I don't use any form of social media, but instead arrange social events through phone calls, texts, and email. None of this has made my life more difficult. On the contrary, I talk to people more often, commit to more social engagements, and feel more in control of my digital life. I highly recommend everybody to at least try some of these things!

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#880

Post by Thorentis »

fsflover wrote: post #776
Thorentis wrote: post #317

This is basically the last straw for me. The past week has made it perfectly clear that Big Tech will close the circle and protect their own. Anything that appears to be censorship resistant, that allows the little guy to get ahead and compete, or that allows individuals to have greater levels of privacy and freedom, will be shut down and de-platformed. As was predicted in 1948, "hate speech" has just become a smoke…

>This is basically the last straw for me. So are you going to switch to a GNU/Linux phone, Librem 5 or Pinephone?

Nokia dumbphone!
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