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Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

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Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#851

Post by panarky »

sammorrowdrums wrote: post #795
panarky wrote: post #785

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you accept that (1) there is a substantial amount of mal-content that Google should censor, and (2) a key use case for federated messaging platforms is to evade censorship, and that (3) client applications can be functionally part of a federated messaging platform while legally separate from it, then those client applications are fair game to be censored when they deliver mal-content. Now I may disagree with parts…

That would presumably include Chrome and https and enabling use through VPNs? The above are use daily for extremist content, CP, circumventing numerous national laws in numerous places... Hard to draw the line.

The line isn't that hard to draw.

If you run a monolithic, centralized service specifically designed to avoid censorship, and you don't moderate what users do on your service, and some of those users hurt people with your service, then you should expect your service will be shut down as Parler was.

And if you do the same thing, but separate the front end from the back end, and have different entities run them to provide legal separation, while practically and functionally the result is identical to that of the monolithic centralized service and your system is used to hurt people, then you should also expect that whatever components can be deplatformed will be deplatformed.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#852

Post by rknintiet »

mysterydip wrote: post #511
Arathorn wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We received a generic update at 05:31 UTC confirming that the app had been suspended due to abusive content (Sexual Content and Profanity: https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ... ); we're following up to explain how Matrix and Element works and get this resolved.

Could this be related to all the WSB shenanigans going on? Banning their chat groups makes them move to another, repeat?

After Discord banned their server, they moved to Telegram and the chat currently has more than 100k members. They would've banned Telegram if they wanted to shut WSB down

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#853

Post by waheoo »

XorNot wrote: post #681
waheoo wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia: Libertarians seek to maximize autonomy and political freedom, emphasizing free association, freedom of choice, individualism and voluntary association. Libertarians share a skepticism of authority and state power, but some of them diverge on the scope of their opposition to existing economic and political systems. If you want to get specific on the economic front I diverge a bit and fall somewhere along th…

I'm not seeing a meaningful objection to Google doing what it wants with moderation of its own platform though. "Do what you want" in the free market is exactly this behavior.

It's own platform?

They're monopolies. They are the market.

There is nothing free about a moderated market.

Robin hood investors disliked a move by management and voted with their feet to place one star reviews.

Google removed them all.

You can but ma private companies if you want but you're only pointing out how monopolistic these platforms are. Good luck with antitrust Google. You gonna get fucked over a barrel. People are waking up.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#854

Post by setr »

panarky wrote: post #849
skynet-9000 wrote: post #803

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While we're at it, should we ban email apps as well? And probably the Internet itself and go back to "safe" walled gardens like AOL, since there are almost certainly bad people on the net?

That's a textbook example of the logical fallacy commonly known as the slippery slope.

No it’s not — it’s pointing out that those arguments fail when looking at existing systems, and would trivially deny things that we know we want. A slippery slope would be that the reasoning lends itself to more extreme reasoning down the line. You don’t need to bother with that here, we’re already arguing from the bottom of the slope.

This simply argues that they’re special-casing against non-established systems — if you applied it uniformly, you’d trivially lose things you obviously want to keep.

That is, this is a stupid operation that is at best sponsored by “think of the children!” Mothers Against Everything foundation.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#855

Post by bigsteve90 »

iamleppert wrote: post #848

Google invested billions into the development of Android when no one else stepped up to do it. They are fully within their rights to protect their investment and fully control the Android ecosystem to their own benefit.

The corporate boot licker comment as expected. There’s always one, “but, think of the mega corporation that has a monopoly!!!!” comment.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#856

Post by sammorrowdrums »

panarky wrote: post #851
sammorrowdrums wrote: post #795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would presumably include Chrome and https and enabling use through VPNs? The above are use daily for extremist content, CP, circumventing numerous national laws in numerous places... Hard to draw the line.

The line isn't that hard to draw. If you run a monolithic, centralized service specifically designed to avoid censorship, and you don't moderate what users do on your service, and some of those users hurt people with your service, then you should expect your service will be shut down as Parler was. And if you do the same thing, but separate the front end from the back end, and have different entities run them to prov…

Your litmus test of 'is used to hurt people' is completely true of web browsers and email too.

Emails are always coming up in court cases etc. as people regularly use them to organise or discuss criminal acts, and it is sometimes used with E2E encryption so nobody can intercept and police the contents. I'm not convinced you've drawn a clear line. When is a protocol client responsible for the content shared or accessed with it, and when is a client not responsible for it.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#857

Post by Arathorn »

Arathorn wrote: post #3

So we got notified by the developer console at 21:45 UTC that the app had been suspended, but still haven’t had an email to explain why - it’s 02:24 now. Our assumption that this is due to someone reporting abusive content in Matrix to Google, and Element catching the blame — although this is currently speculation. To be clear: Element is a Matrix client just as Chrome is a Web browser, and just as it’s possible to v…

UPDATE: I just got a call from a VP at Google who apologised for the bad communication around this and explained the situation, which related to some extremely abusive content which was accessible on the default matrix.org homeserver. We don't want to go into specifics, but suffice it to say that it's not related to WallStreet Bets or anything like that, but instead is the sort of thing that causes you to get locked up for life.

We spent today doing an audit by revisiting recent issues reported to abuse@matrix.org, which had already identified and acted on the content in question. We also took the opportunity to explain how Element and Matrix fit together, what decentralisation is, and the steps we take to mitigate abuse on the servers we run.

As a result, it looks like the app has just been reinstated while I was typing this message: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=im.vector.app.

Thanks everyone for your patience and support while we sorted this out (and huge thanks to the overall Element team who spent their Saturdays on the audit).

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#858

Post by bordercases »

nobody9999 wrote: post #250
adventured wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure you can, by petitioning your government to draft laws and so on. Ask the government to do something about it? They're allies, they're in it together. There is no scenario where they don't take out encryption this decade. It's a top priority and big tech is going to very happily assist them. Big tech will give them what they want, they will act as an arm of tyranny assisting the government in smashing human rig…

>Ask the government to do something about it? They're allies, they're in it together. If that's how it is where you live, and you live in a democracy, you can change that.

A democracy isn't a democracy categorically, it's a democracy only if it behaves as a democracy. If elected representatives are behaving in the way they are with respect to encryption and tech anti-trust, then either it is an ineffectual, degenerate case of a democracy – and if the representatives are failing now, as they have been for at least a decade on this issue, when would throwing new ones be as effective as it needs to be? – or it is not fully a democracy.

If you want to reason from labels as if they are tautologies, here's a word for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anocracy

The alternative interpretation to what you propose is running for office. That's not out of the question but it's a decades-long pipeline with a lot of protections built in by convention. Outsiders are going to have difficulty until the current gen of representatives fades with age, and making headway is feasible only with the hope that the growing sphere of elite replacements are less competent behind the reigns if they decide to maintain their predecessors' policies.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#859

Post by majewsky »

Arathorn wrote: post #597
Arathorn wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We received a generic update at 05:31 UTC confirming that the app had been suspended due to abusive content (Sexual Content and Profanity: https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ... ); we're following up to explain how Matrix and Element works and get this resolved.

We've just published an official blog post updating on the situation at https://element.io/blog/element-on-google-play-store/ which we'll keep updated as things progress.

FYI, there's a typo in the updates at the bottom: Yesterday and today is referred to as being in 2020 rather than 2021.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#860

Post by cbradford »

Arathorn wrote: post #857
Arathorn wrote: post #3

So we got notified by the developer console at 21:45 UTC that the app had been suspended, but still haven’t had an email to explain why - it’s 02:24 now. Our assumption that this is due to someone reporting abusive content in Matrix to Google, and Element catching the blame — although this is currently speculation. To be clear: Element is a Matrix client just as Chrome is a Web browser, and just as it’s possible to v…

UPDATE: I just got a call from a VP at Google who apologised for the bad communication around this and explained the situation, which related to some extremely abusive content which was accessible on the default matrix.org homeserver. We don't want to go into specifics, but suffice it to say that it's not related to WallStreet Bets or anything like that, but instead is the sort of thing that causes you to get locked…

Very happy for you guys. But do take this as a shot across the bow, if and when it serves Google's agenda to shut you down they will. You have a great service, don't let Google control you and be beholden to them.
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