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CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

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Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When will the politicians hang? What an appalling sentiment.

Why can't we speak figuratively anymore? Why is Deloitte getting all the blame here? Why is the government not responsible for this fiasco? They know very well what Deloitte is and what their track record is.

Well, we saw what "figurative" talk got us at the Capitol Building on the 6th. Calling it figurative is like Alex Jones claiming to be a "performance artist," i.e. a thin attempt to disguise the reality of the statement and to get away with saying inappropriate things.

(Plus, this is Hacker News, where discourse is intended to be civil rather than deliberately inflammatory.)

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#42
post #17

I have worked with Deloitte on two projects (on clients' side, I would never willingly work for Deloitte). Generally expect them to do absolute minimum necessary to meet the contract. The code was obfuscated to ensure support contract. The people employed to write it were not interested in the quality in the slightest but were interested a lot in specifics of the contract.

Lol. How was the code obfuscated? That brings back memories of php obfuscator. What a strange world that was. I think there was even a deobfuscator that tried to rename the variables sensibly, or something.

Well, you can make simple functionalities so baroque that you will not be able to work with them without some kind of notes. It is not easy to define in contract what is sane code.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#43
post #13

I just don't understand these software deals, the price is so high. At 44 million, you can hire 146 engineers each paid 300k for a full year. Trust me, you need much less to build something like this, and there's no excuse for it to suck so bad. I'm also curious, anyone know where the development actually happened? Did Deloitte further subcontracted out? Was it outsourced?

> I just don't understand these software deals, the price is so high. Don't contractors do everything they can to milk government contracts as much as possible? I'm pretty sure I've even seen people provide advice on how to do this effectively right here on HN. So I can definitely understand how it happens...

The difference is they aren’t paying the engineers 300k they are paying an endless amount of administrator executives with “industry experience” aka 20yrs emailing spreadsheets between other managers at IBM.

I realized this once when I started attending (Canadian) gov ‘innovation’ events and ‘startup’ funding initiatives.

There was hardly anyone I’d consider an engineer that is benefiting from these systems. It’s a giant well organized grift for washed up “industry” execs and others hangers on with friends in the right places.

And I don’t mean to be ageist saying that. That would be over simplifying, but there is a inherent preference to those with safe names in their resume, regardless of relevancy. But there’s plenty of spaces in between for youthful people who understand how these meat factories work. Especially ones who understand their value, usually the unnamed ones working on the edges.

But by the time it comes to actually making the meat most of the money has already been allocated to the aforementioned people and they rush to find outsource the “real” work to some overpaid consulting company who are also experts at fleecing these gov contracts with endless meetings and perfecting the right checkmarks get checked.

I remember going to a Zuckerberg talk around 2010 at YC school at Stanford and he mentioned how he was hiring engineers even for the typical ‘executive’ jobs and I remember feeling like that’s the difference between startup tech companies and these failed hundred million dollar imitations.

It all comes down to the people and which ones are getting the power. Basically which side of the “iron rule” they come from https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't we speak figuratively anymore? Why is Deloitte getting all the blame here? Why is the government not responsible for this fiasco? They know very well what Deloitte is and what their track record is.

Well, we saw what "figurative" talk got us at the Capitol Building on the 6th. Calling it figurative is like Alex Jones claiming to be a "performance artist," i.e. a thin attempt to disguise the reality of the statement and to get away with saying inappropriate things. (Plus, this is Hacker News, where discourse is intended to be civil rather than deliberately inflammatory.)

Thanks for the reminder to not be inflammatory... need more of this here. Cheers.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#45
post #18

> Why was Deloitte awarded the project on a no-bid basis? The contracts claim the company was the only “responsible source”[1] to build the tool. [1]: https://www.acquisition.gov/far/6.302-1

Usually government agencies write the contracts in a way that prevents other parties from bidding to streamline the procurement process. Now what I don't understand, is why wasn't the contract written so the state could refuse broken software, or to get a partial refund if it's doesn't meet the specifications. Someone got wined and dined pretty well. And government needs better lawyers when dealing with private contr…

In my limited experience and anecdata, governments have been so trigger happy in getting rid of and/or marginalizing technical staff that there are few qualified individuals in the procurement office who can properly draft RFPs and evaluate proposals to keep bidders accountable. What you're left with is mostly (M)BAs and admin types who can hammer out high-level Word docs of specs but not much else. In that environment, it's not surprising that Deloitte, McKessen, IBM and co (or as I like to call them, the Procurement Vampires) can lowball and BS themselves into these projects. If you don't know anything, better the devil you know, right ?

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#46
post #13

I just don't understand these software deals, the price is so high. At 44 million, you can hire 146 engineers each paid 300k for a full year. Trust me, you need much less to build something like this, and there's no excuse for it to suck so bad. I'm also curious, anyone know where the development actually happened? Did Deloitte further subcontracted out? Was it outsourced?

I've no love for Deloitte, but the one benefit they do have here is the ability to mobilize quickly on something like this. It's simply impossible to "hire 146 engineers" within any reasonable time frame, let alone get them all organized in a way that you can manage them effectively (and don't forget the project managers/scrum masters/etc that would need to be hired too). Deloitte, OTOH, has an entire existing business model based on taking vague business requirements and having huge teams of project managers/developers/consultants/advisors/etc ready to go at nearly a moments notice.

$44 million is an egregious number and I don't know how it's that high, but I'm betting at least part of it has to do with the fact that this was a website with an accelerated timeline, which probably necessitated a premium.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#47
post #13

I just don't understand these software deals, the price is so high. At 44 million, you can hire 146 engineers each paid 300k for a full year. Trust me, you need much less to build something like this, and there's no excuse for it to suck so bad. I'm also curious, anyone know where the development actually happened? Did Deloitte further subcontracted out? Was it outsourced?

As software goes, it's pretty likely that if you hire 146 engineers to build a website that could be built and supported with a team of 8.. you are almost certain to get a buggy mess that takes 146 engineers to maintain and support. After all, the architecture will need to accommodate 18 8 person teams, provide scope for ~20 Staff engineers along with a full layer of middle management.

I wouldn't be surprised if these proposals take into account headcount as a positive for both quality and job creation purposes.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#48
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol. How was the code obfuscated? That brings back memories of php obfuscator. What a strange world that was. I think there was even a deobfuscator that tried to rename the variables sensibly, or something.

Well, you can make simple functionalities so baroque that you will not be able to work with them without some kind of notes. It is not easy to define in contract what is sane code.

But that just sounds like regular big company codebases. I see no difference.

At Scottrade, I was horrified to find a 5k or 10k line Date C++ class. They'd copy paste functions to handle each leap year individually. The function names themselves contained the specific year.

They also yelled at me for downloading the source code to `touch`.

It was nice to get to see the crazy side of software. Everyone was deadpan serious about it too.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When will the politicians hang? What an appalling sentiment.

Why can't we speak figuratively anymore? Why is Deloitte getting all the blame here? Why is the government not responsible for this fiasco? They know very well what Deloitte is and what their track record is.

It’s almost as if there’s some recent literal context that turns that comment - ordinarily just crass and pointless - into something more appalling
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