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Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

basicincometoday.com

131–140 of 184 posts

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#131
post #19

Authors like this frame the UBI/minimum wage debate as if we just haven't figured out the right policy mix to fix poverty or precarity -- as if it's a problem of ideas. I propose that it's in fact a question of power -- 1) who benefits from people being poor and how much 2) power do they have? 1) Owners of capital, who don't want to see their labour costs escalate and use firing/the poverty gun as a disciplinary tool…

That's a very narrative driven world view. The problem with UBI is that some jobs suck but need to be done, and if you set a guaranteed income for doing nothing the incentive for doing that job suddenly needs to be a lot higher to compete. Saying that it's just the capital owners is ridiculous - consider for eg. elderly care - good luck living in with your demented mother who needs assistance to perform even the basi…

UBI is the wrong tool to solve inequality because there is already an existing tool for that. It's called inflation.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#132
post #107
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And politically, I think it’s more appealing to be able to say to everyone: You have intrinsic value. The universality of UBI is key to its political viability. Just look at the number of people who are against forgiving college debt because they have already paid off college or are past the stage in their life in which they are personally concerned about college debt. Most people still view "fairness" as everyone b…

Fairness is treating everyone equally, the fact you put that in quotes is concerning... Further it is not just people that have paid off college debt or are past the stage where are concerned about college debt.. Many people worked their ass off to become good at a trade or other profession with out incurring college debt, why should we then have to pay increased taxes to pay of those that bought into the college lie…

Let’s say you are at a family reunion and want to play a game of baseball with everyone. Is it “fair” to have the same rules for the 6 year old child and the 25 year old who used to play on his high school baseball team? More likely you would tweak the rules a little or pitch a little slower to the kid so everyone has fun and can fully participate.

Sometimes fairness means leveling the playing field so everyone can compete equally.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#133
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually worse than that. There's often not any kind of sliding scale. Make $x and you get rental assistance, medical care for your kids, food aid, whatever. Make $x+1, and you get jack and shit. There's no reason for it to be that way, in a world with ubiquitous calculators and computers, but that's how it often is.

The crucial bit is that there's a gap. Say financial assistance worth $12,000 is available for people who make * If you make $20,000 then your effective income is $32,000. * If you make $32,000 then your effective income is $32,000. * If you make $25,000 then you're effective income is $25,000. This creates a terrible incentive structure where you actually don't want to make more then $20,000 unless you're sure you c…

This makes sense, and I think it would be hard to argue against.

For all the descriptions though, there is a key lack of how to easily describe it. It’s missing it’s catch phrase if you will.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#134

I'm not an economist so I would really appreciate insight into a thought I've had about UBI. Let's say your rent is $1,000 per month, and the government began a universal basic income program of $500 per month for everyone. If your landlord raises your rent by $500, are you not in the same position as you were before without the UBI? I ask this because my argument with a UBI is that it will create more money in the s…

>If your landlord raises your rent by $500, are you not in the same position as you were before without the UBI?

If your landlord raises your rent then it will be more profitable to build housing which then allows construction companies to employ more workers. Of course, the problem with this is that some cities have banned new construction but that's a problem with the specific city, not with the idea itself.

Yes, it would drive inflation and moderate inflation drives jobs growth so everyone would benefit, except those whose net worth is invested in unproductive companies or assets.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#135
post #11

The minute UBI gets instituted is the minute that politicians will arise who want to lower the quantity for one group of people and increase it for the group of people that supports them. Eventually it will end up being means tested in one form or another just like the income tax system has been made so complex by politicians favoring one group over another. I absolutely love the idea of UBI but I just don't see it s…

This is true. The entire value proposition of UBI lies in it's unconditional nature. The expectation that governments won't butcher it is highly unreasonable.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#136
post #5

I agree UBI is better than a minimum wage, but it seems a Negative Income Tax as advocated for by Milton Friedman would be still better. It would have the desired effect of supporting the poor with guaranteed income (something minimum wage can’t do because of the labor shortage it creates, especially amongst low-skilled employees), but do so a lot more cost effectively than UBI since you wouldn’t be guaranteeing paym…

Negative income tax has the same problem as the insane creep in income tax allowance the UK has seen since 2010, it’s now double than it was a decade ago and it accounts essentially for the entire growth in the take home pay in the UK over the past decade.

Negative income tax and yearly increases in tax allowances shift the burden on pay increases from the employer to the government and thus to the tax payer.

In the UK employers had no incentive to increase pay when the government increases the tax free allowance year after year, and employees seeing that their take home increases don’t really care where it comes form especially in the lower income brackets.

I personally don’t like UBI either because it’s essentially a transfer of wealth from the middle to the top.

I would much rather see a universal basic services program that guarantees universal free at the point of use access to services such as housing, healthcare and education provided directly by a government body or non for profit enterprises.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've mostly run out of things for horses to do, which is why we don't see so many anymore. Automation took longer but it's getting pretty close for a lot of simple jobs at the same time.

Money represents labor, not machine time. All goods and services are ultimately the product of labor.

I can hire a guy to wash my car, or I can drop money into a machine that’s open 24/7 and doesn’t get bored. Labor to build and maintain the machine isn’t zero but it is dramatically less.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#138
post #5

I agree UBI is better than a minimum wage, but it seems a Negative Income Tax as advocated for by Milton Friedman would be still better. It would have the desired effect of supporting the poor with guaranteed income (something minimum wage can’t do because of the labor shortage it creates, especially amongst low-skilled employees), but do so a lot more cost effectively than UBI since you wouldn’t be guaranteeing paym…

Negative income tax has the same problem as the insane creep in income tax allowance the UK has seen since 2010, it’s now double than it was a decade ago and it accounts essentially for the entire growth in the take home pay in the UK over the past decade. Negative income tax and yearly increases in tax allowances shift the burden on pay increases from the employer to the government and thus to the tax payer. In the…

>I would much rather see a universal basic services program that guarantees universal free at the point of use access to services such as housing, healthcare and education provided directly by a government body or non for profit enterprises.

I agree that creating such a program creates political incentives for increasing it over time in excess of inflation. That's a real cost that needs to be weighed against alternative approaches.

But consider what happens when you make services "free at the point of use access". The price no longer serves the purpose of summarizing and transmitting information about the good or service. The consumer of the "free" good no longer gets any information about the scarcity or quality of the resource, and the provider no longer gets any information about the demand for their good and consequently how much to produce. Prices are the primary mechanism for coordinating decisions efficiently by summarizing actionable decision making information and economizing on expensive knowledge acquisition, interpretation, and communication costs.

It should hardly be a surprise when demand and consumption of those goods and services with a zero price goes up, and supply and quality goes down. Now suddenly you need to grow large bureaucracies for rationing the resources which will inevitably miss the mark of serving disparate individual needs as efficiently as the price mechanism could in a free market.

It's the classic recipe for degrading quality and creating shortages. I believe it's much more desirable for housing, healthcare, and education to be served by the market precisely because of how important they are to people. Putting cash into people's pockets directly has a much smaller distortive effect on market operations, and allows people to express their preferences in allowing them to vote with their dollars, as opposed to "free at point of service / consumption" goods and services.

It's no accident that UBI was proposed by Friedrich Hayek, and the Negative Income Tax by Milton Friedman. You could hardly accuse either of being in favor of wealth transfers, but they both understood the profound negative consequences of distorting prices, which essentially is lying to economic decision makers about the costs and benefits of taking certain actions, resulting in inevitably less efficient allocation of scarce resources that could possibly have been used more productively elsewhere in the economy.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#139
post #4

And why does the author not support both? It's articles like this that make me wonder if the purpose of the basic income movement is to act as a sort of pipe dream spoiler for more realistic progressive policies - like a $15 minimum wage. Either that or a plan to make welfare "fairer" by ensuring that disabled veterans who can't work and tech millionaires get the same $ amount each month from the government. Especial…

A minimum wage is bad because there is work people want to do which isnt worth 15 an hour. UBI means people will be able to afford rent and food and engage in their choice of labor, even if it's not highly valuable work.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#140
post #5

I agree UBI is better than a minimum wage, but it seems a Negative Income Tax as advocated for by Milton Friedman would be still better. It would have the desired effect of supporting the poor with guaranteed income (something minimum wage can’t do because of the labor shortage it creates, especially amongst low-skilled employees), but do so a lot more cost effectively than UBI since you wouldn’t be guaranteeing paym…

I'm in favor of instituting demurrage currency, which has the feature of being unable to hide money from taxes.
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