How a civilization would expand at the speed of light? Unless it lives directly on the fabric of space or something like that, matter is discrete in the universe. You settle on planets that are not everywhere, or in space stations built with Oort cloud or asteroid belts materials, but it takes time to settle and expand in each new ground you get. You are not talking about the speed of light anymore there. Of course,…
Think “matter scanner/printer”. Scan an object, at atomic & energy vector level. Transmit that information to a destination’s printer. Expansion is then indeed at speed of light, capped only by need to physically move a small “seed” printer (rapid transport may have enormous energy cost, but that’s all that needs moving; everything else is just data). Having seen tech go from digital imaging to 3D organ printing in a…
Once we can see them, it’s too late
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Re: Once we can see them, it’s too late
#42Another interesting idea he explores a bit is "ownership" of resources. Do the resource-rich asteroids in our solar system really belong to us? Or are they available to any alien race who happens to pass through? In the book, we first notice aliens by observing unexplainable infrared radiation from the asteroid belt (later revealed to be thermal emissions from their resource extraction). He suggests that these aliens will potentially crowd out humans; even if they are not overtly hostile, they could gobble up all the resources we would have used to expand our civilization.
Highly recommend this book.
Re: Once we can see them, it’s too late
#43This presumes that The Most Technologically Advanced Civilization sees virgin nature as nothing but raw material waiting to become something useful. That's possible, but probable? I think that it's likely that diminishing marginal utility still holds even for TMTAC, and therefore they are disinclined to convert all the universe's visible matter and energy into Dyson swarms of Space Product.
My favorite (not particularly testable) solution to the Fermi paradox is that TMTAC originated shortly after the first heavy elements and planets formed. It became space faring and expanded throughout the visible universe before our solar system formed. Its agents have been lurking in our solar system since before life first appeared here. Having long ago achieved immortality and technological supremacy, there's no motivation for plundering or trading with terrestrial creatures. They silently observe like space faring bird watchers. They'll intervene if/when we start to approach the capabilities of TMTAC, particularly if we show destructive paperclip-maximizer inclinations toward converting the universe into Space Product.
To borrow some terminology from Nick Bostrom's Superintelligence book, it's possible that the universe has been colonized by a singleton civilization -- the first one to become star faring. But it's not particularly chatty or inclined to let potentially competing star faring civilizations expand.
Re: Once we can see them, it’s too late
#44It seems like the argument gets a lot less interesting if the most-expanding interstellar civilizations don't spread at anywhere near the speed of light? It's easy to think of reasons why this might be the case. There is acceleration, deceleration, and replication time, which seems like it would be substantial for any civilization that doesn't want to put most of its resources into replicating as fast as possible.
Re: Once we can see them, it’s too late
#45Huh? > Only when the sphere’s thin outer shell had reached the earth—perhaps carrying radio signals from the extraterrestrials’ early history, before their rapid expansion started. By that point, though, the expanding sphere itself would be nearly upon us! Wouldn't the problematic portion of the sphere be, by definition, millions of years away from us? Given that radio waves travel at the speed of light, and the alie…
Re: Once we can see them, it’s too late
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is no alternative to working with the data you have. But believing that you understand the data when there are huge glaring inconsistencies in your understanding is... naive.
I guess I missed the part where this was proclaimed to be Truth.
He says there are only 3 possibilities (the part starting with "then either" 1) ... 2) ... 3) ...
But that's ignoring category 4) which is that we have only a fraction of a fraction of a grain of sand of the real data, and might be a bit early to come to conclusions.
So not to say #3 is wrong, and heck it could very well be more probably than #1 and #2, but I wouldn't bet the house yet when we don't know if there's an option #4 - #4,000,000,000,000 because we haven't even observed data from dimensions we don't even know exist it.
Re: Once we can see them, it’s too late
#47This kind of assumes that a “maxed out” civilization can expand at speed of light, but I don’t think it is given. It may very well be that meaningfully massive transport cannot exceed even a small fraction of c . After all, propulsion has to make energetic sense. 1. There is energy to get to speed 2. Mass of fuel to decelerate (and you have to accelerate that fuel in the beginning!) 3. Highly blue shifted CMB (that a…
So you can use a laser beam to construct a 3D printer at a distance.
Rinse and repeat, and this is asymptotically expanding at c.
Re: Once we can see them, it’s too late
#48https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjm--7t8Llk&feature=youtu.be
Re: Once we can see them, it’s too late
#49Re: Once we can see them, it’s too late
#50Huh? > Only when the sphere’s thin outer shell had reached the earth—perhaps carrying radio signals from the extraterrestrials’ early history, before their rapid expansion started. By that point, though, the expanding sphere itself would be nearly upon us! Wouldn't the problematic portion of the sphere be, by definition, millions of years away from us? Given that radio waves travel at the speed of light, and the alie…
The first radio transmission by humans was made in 1895. It took another 74 years for humans to land on the moon. It would be disappointing if our augmented and/or artificial descendants really needed millions more years to reach beyond the solar system.