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Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

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Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#61

Post by reaperducer »

blackearl wrote: post #49
reaperducer wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of fun catch phrases, but unless you also propose a solution, it comes off like someone standing on a soap box in a campus quad preaching to three people.

I wouldn't expect the solution to world poverty to be easily typed up on an internet message board.

I agree, which is why I generally stay out of these conversations.

But I think it's important for people go to beyond "That's not the problem. This is the problem" and on to "But here's something we might think about that could work toward a solution."

All I ever see on HN is the same talking points I've heard regurgitated in the dozen or so union halls I've been in from coast to coast over the last 30 years. Everyone gets a lot of practice shouting the right keywords, but nobody ever says anything new, or even tip-toes near a solution.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#62

Post by thatguy0900 »

reader_mode wrote: post #46
overton wrote: post #19

Authors like this frame the UBI/minimum wage debate as if we just haven't figured out the right policy mix to fix poverty or precarity -- as if it's a problem of ideas. I propose that it's in fact a question of power -- 1) who benefits from people being poor and how much 2) power do they have? 1) Owners of capital, who don't want to see their labour costs escalate and use firing/the poverty gun as a disciplinary tool…

That's a very narrative driven world view. The problem with UBI is that some jobs suck but need to be done, and if you set a guaranteed income for doing nothing the incentive for doing that job suddenly needs to be a lot higher to compete. Saying that it's just the capital owners is ridiculous - consider for eg. elderly care - good luck living in with your demented mother who needs assistance to perform even the basi…

So poor people need to exist because otherwise we wouldn't be able to force people to do things we ourselves wouldnt want to do? And if they are not poor they would stop being in awful servitude jobs noone wants? I guess it just sucks to be born poor then, too bad we can't help them

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#63

Post by HideousKojima »

A12-B wrote: post #10
azey47 wrote: post #5

I agree UBI is better than a minimum wage, but it seems a Negative Income Tax as advocated for by Milton Friedman would be still better. It would have the desired effect of supporting the poor with guaranteed income (something minimum wage can’t do because of the labor shortage it creates, especially amongst low-skilled employees), but do so a lot more cost effectively than UBI since you wouldn’t be guaranteeing paym…

> something minimum wage can’t do because of the labor shortage it creates It's important to read economic literature beyond old dead economists because many modern economists disagree with this, or think it doesn't paint a full picture of the situation. Noah Smith comes to mind.

Here's some studies of the effects of Seattle's minimum wage hike:

https://www.washington.edu/news/2019/02/06/two-new-studies-p...

"The most common strategic response reported by the businesses has been to raise prices or fees of child tuition and to reduce hours of or number of staff. Center directors reported that employee wages and benefits comprise the majority of business expenses and that child tuition was the primary source of business income. Thus, most businesses reported they would need a mix of strategies to accommodate increased labor costs to ensure that added expenses were not falling entirely onto the families they serve."

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#64

Post by usrusr »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #26
SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to ask, but can you dumb this down? I still don’t really get it. Are you saying that if you have no job that 100% of your income is tax funded, but if you have even a shitty job that you still get more benefit than the job alone but this is sliding scale down to some unknown point which you no longer receive any benefit at all?

It's actually worse than that. There's often not any kind of sliding scale. Make $x and you get rental assistance, medical care for your kids, food aid, whatever. Make $x+1, and you get jack and shit. There's no reason for it to be that way, in a world with ubiquitous calculators and computers, but that's how it often is.

This. If you go on and calculate an effective tax rate "after welfare benefits", that "+1" could easily appear being taxed at six-digit percentages. Wealth people sob dearly when they see only 50 cent from a dollar they earned, but every welfare system striving for need-based distribution ends up having income points where you can consider yourself lucky if you don't see a net negative for a dollar earned.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#65

Post by dang »

grecy wrote: post #45
overton wrote: post #19

Authors like this frame the UBI/minimum wage debate as if we just haven't figured out the right policy mix to fix poverty or precarity -- as if it's a problem of ideas. I propose that it's in fact a question of power -- 1) who benefits from people being poor and how much 2) power do they have? 1) Owners of capital, who don't want to see their labour costs escalate and use firing/the poverty gun as a disciplinary tool…

[flagged]

You have a long history of posting nationalistic flamebait to HN. We've warned you many times:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25800127

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22622642

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22604801

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22221660

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21880344

... and you've only kept doing it. You've done it repeatedly in recent days, even in the last few minutes. This really needs to stop.

I don't want to ban you, because you also post good comments and that's great. But when an account keeps breaking the site guidelines and repeatedly flouts our requests to stop doing that, obviously that's where that ends up.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#66

Post by gtsop »

reader_mode wrote: post #46
overton wrote: post #19

Authors like this frame the UBI/minimum wage debate as if we just haven't figured out the right policy mix to fix poverty or precarity -- as if it's a problem of ideas. I propose that it's in fact a question of power -- 1) who benefits from people being poor and how much 2) power do they have? 1) Owners of capital, who don't want to see their labour costs escalate and use firing/the poverty gun as a disciplinary tool…

That's a very narrative driven world view. The problem with UBI is that some jobs suck but need to be done, and if you set a guaranteed income for doing nothing the incentive for doing that job suddenly needs to be a lot higher to compete. Saying that it's just the capital owners is ridiculous - consider for eg. elderly care - good luck living in with your demented mother who needs assistance to perform even the basi…

Do you see the irony in that the shity jobs that noone wants to do are the ones that pay less? There is another solution to give incentive there, raise the salaries for these shity jobs to attract people. It is very convinient that this shityjob-noincentive argument is being propagated by the same people who will never have to do these jobs or live by limited money.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#67

Post by AnthonyMouse »

RangerScience wrote: post #39
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only difference between a UBI and a negative income tax is framing. Suppose you have a negative income tax in the amount of $12,000 which phases out at a rate of 25% up to $48,000 in income, and a 5% marginal tax rate on people who make less than $48,000 and a 30% marginal tax rate on people who make more. Suppose you have a $12,000 UBI and a flat 30% tax rate. These are really the same thing. The advantage of th…

Isn't the another significant different in the logistics of distribution? For UBI, you need to / get to have a direct line to every person/citizen. For NI, they come to you. I honestly have no idea which one is better/easier from this perspective, it just seems like the logistics implementation is another significant difference.

I don't know if I would call that a significant difference, especially since neither one of them is really tied to any specific logistical approach. You could pay a UBI as net of withholding so that it comes once a year in the same check as your tax refund. You could pay a negative income tax on a weekly basis so that net recipients get a tax refund check every week.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#68

Post by Buttons840 »

Here's an alternate idea.

Encourage (read: regulate) companies to offer very generous paid time off, like 3 months a year paid time off or more.

People can use the time off to work a second job, and thus receive more income from working the same hours. It will also increase worker mobility, because a worker already working 2 jobs should be much more willing to take risks and try out new jobs. This will create competition between employers, because many employees will be working two jobs. If you treat your employees bad, the will request fewer hours and spend more time at their other job, or just leave.

Or, the extra time off could be used for entrepreneurial pursuits. Or just to relax, etc.

This is an alternate plan that has many of the same benefits as a higher minimum wage and universal basic income. I haven't hear it discussed by anyone else though.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#69

Post by aww_dang »

gtsop wrote: post #66
reader_mode wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very narrative driven world view. The problem with UBI is that some jobs suck but need to be done, and if you set a guaranteed income for doing nothing the incentive for doing that job suddenly needs to be a lot higher to compete. Saying that it's just the capital owners is ridiculous - consider for eg. elderly care - good luck living in with your demented mother who needs assistance to perform even the basi…

Do you see the irony in that the shity jobs that noone wants to do are the ones that pay less? There is another solution to give incentive there, raise the salaries for these shity jobs to attract people. It is very convinient that this shityjob-noincentive argument is being propagated by the same people who will never have to do these jobs or live by limited money.

>argument is being propagated by the same people who will never have to do these jobs or live by limited money

How were you able to determine this from across the Internet?

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#70

Post by true_religion »

reader_mode wrote: post #46
overton wrote: post #19

Authors like this frame the UBI/minimum wage debate as if we just haven't figured out the right policy mix to fix poverty or precarity -- as if it's a problem of ideas. I propose that it's in fact a question of power -- 1) who benefits from people being poor and how much 2) power do they have? 1) Owners of capital, who don't want to see their labour costs escalate and use firing/the poverty gun as a disciplinary tool…

That's a very narrative driven world view. The problem with UBI is that some jobs suck but need to be done, and if you set a guaranteed income for doing nothing the incentive for doing that job suddenly needs to be a lot higher to compete. Saying that it's just the capital owners is ridiculous - consider for eg. elderly care - good luck living in with your demented mother who needs assistance to perform even the basi…

I recently went through my mothers health failing and then subsequent death. If I didn’t have to work, I absolutely would have cared for her myself.

However, there is no way I could have quit working and keep the house in a relatively expensive area that I bought to be close to job opportunities.

UBI changes the calculus dramatically. Suddenly you can just do things for yourself .

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