Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#51

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #37

overton wrote: post #19

Authors like this frame the UBI/minimum wage debate as if we just haven't figured out the right policy mix to fix poverty or precarity -- as if it's a problem of ideas. I propose that it's in fact a question of power -- 1) who benefits from people being poor and how much 2) power do they have? 1) Owners of capital, who don't want to see their labour costs escalate and use firing/the poverty gun as a disciplinary tool…

Indeed you'll find that places with high degree of union power often don't have minimum wage and far less interest in UBI, because there tends to be tariff agreements and welfare systems in place that makes these things seem rather redundant. The continuation of poverty in most of the developed world is a choice , and one that people keep voting for. As long as people keep voting to maintain poverty, it's a relativel…

[deleted]

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#52

Post by richwater » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #11

The minute UBI gets instituted is the minute that politicians will arise who want to lower the quantity for one group of people and increase it for the group of people that supports them. Eventually it will end up being means tested in one form or another just like the income tax system has been made so complex by politicians favoring one group over another. I absolutely love the idea of UBI but I just don't see it s…

It will 100% just become welfare with a different coat of paint.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#53

Post by actualhuman » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

We need to open the borders up. It is so unfair that only people who happen to live in the USA right now will get UBI.

Biden needs to form military caravans to escort people across Mexico to get here as fast as possible. He can also start planes and ships from Africa. How many people can you load on an aircraft carrier? How many trips can it make a year? Let's stop messing around.

It's so nationalist to talk about UBI without including those who cannot partake of it by accident of birth. Shame.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#54

Post by kwhitefoot » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

codemac wrote: post #16

guerrilla wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> would avoid any welfare trap created by existing welfare programs. How would it do that?

Hypothetically they'd get rid of a lot of welfare programs and just institute a negative tax, which has a smooth curve upwards. More money always means you make more, just maybe not linearly. UBI can do this too - it's not clear to me what the practical differences between UBI and "negative income tax" are.

The advantage of UBI is that everyone gets it. Of course the puritans who believe that someone is only worth what a job gives them object that only those earning should get paid so some people regard this as a disadvantage.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#55

Post by noodle » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

nodesocket wrote: post #31

A12-B wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> something minimum wage can’t do because of the labor shortage it creates It's important to read economic literature beyond old dead economists because many modern economists disagree with this, or think it doesn't paint a full picture of the situation. Noah Smith comes to mind.

Or how about the big elephant in the room that nobody seems to be bring up; the effect on small businesses that can’t afford to pay employees $15 or $20/hr. So, instead of helping the poor, these policies raise unemployment and actually are a detriment to the overall health of the economy.

Everyone talks about it. This is pretending that businesses would do nothing in response to the changes. They'd do a lot of stuff, like raise prices, invest in efficiency improvements, invest in their employees, reduce employee hours, offset the increase in lower level wages by reducing upper level wages, etc.. What the response would be just depends on the business and their circumstances.

Edit: also, I can't find the study, but I know there was one done about statewide minimum wage changes in states with large differences in cost of living. It's a smaller scale version of what you'd see on a nationwide hike given the differences in cost of living (i.e,, NYC vs Buffalo). Generally speaking, businesses adjusted.

E2: here's a study that isn't the one I was looking for, but is topical: https://www.epi.org/publication/webfeatures_viewpoints_raisi...

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#56

Post by wpietri » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #23

pydry wrote: post #4

And why does the author not support both? It's articles like this that make me wonder if the purpose of the basic income movement is to act as a sort of pipe dream spoiler for more realistic progressive policies - like a $15 minimum wage. Either that or a plan to make welfare "fairer" by ensuring that disabled veterans who can't work and tech millionaires get the same $ amount each month from the government. Especial…

The concern is that we're soon going to reach a point where "our current economic order" - the assumption that every healthy adult should have a full-time job - is unsustainable. I wouldn't say I oppose a $15 minimum wage, and I don't think the author would either, but we do desperately need to start thinking about our transition to a post-work society and I worry minimum wage debates are sucking up a lot of the ener…

Why do you think we'll run out of things for people to do? The history of the last 500 years or so suggests that when old jobs get optimized out of existence, there's still plenty that needs doing. When I look around, I definitely don't see a society with no unfilled needs, so I expect we can keep going quite a spell.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#57

Post by maxerickson » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #36

I agree with most of the comments here about how UBI == negative tax, its really just changing the names of transfer payments in the economy. That said, the really appealing thing is that it allows wages to be unbound from the question of supporting the poor. If people are below the poverty line you can raise UBI, but you don't have to put your thumb on the scales of the labor market. But to not just re-create welfar…

To pay for it, it's going to be fully reclaimed at like $90,000 or lower.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#58

Post by jgalt212 » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

the general populace would have no knowledge of wallstreetbets without UBI and WFH.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#59

Post by aww_dang » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:53 PM UTC

Turing_Machine wrote: post #18

sdenton4 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is 'you?' Capitalism is a social good to the extent that it solves problems and makes people's lives better. But capitalism only solves the problems of people with money: their cash is THE incentive for others to figure out how to solve their problems. If people with problems have no money, they effectively create no demand. Add wealth to the bottom tier of society and we'll generate generate demand to solve prob…

It's pretty clear that minimum wage increases are inflationary. They may not be NET inflationary in some circumstances. Consider this thought experiment: raise the minimum wage to $2 million/hour. What happens to prices?

What happens to employment?

For 2M/hour employers would be able to maintain sophisticated forms of automation, without the liabilities of humans.

In terms of price inflation, UBI will inject the hot flows which previously stayed in capital markets into everyday consumption.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#60

Post by maxerickson » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:53 PM UTC

hehehaha wrote: post #25

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only difference between a UBI and a negative income tax is framing. Suppose you have a negative income tax in the amount of $12,000 which phases out at a rate of 25% up to $48,000 in income, and a 5% marginal tax rate on people who make less than $48,000 and a 30% marginal tax rate on people who make more. Suppose you have a $12,000 UBI and a flat 30% tax rate. These are really the same thing. The advantage of th…

With UBI, people will be more selective in their job search. With negative tax rate not so much since you would need to work in order to benefit. I am not a fan of them because they will simply push out cost of living and the poor will be back in same relative economic disadvantage. The only realistic solution I see is free education even into adult age.

I don't think people talking about a negative income tax are aligned behind it being non refundable.