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Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

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Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#31

Post by nodesocket »

A12-B wrote: post #10
azey47 wrote: post #5

I agree UBI is better than a minimum wage, but it seems a Negative Income Tax as advocated for by Milton Friedman would be still better. It would have the desired effect of supporting the poor with guaranteed income (something minimum wage can’t do because of the labor shortage it creates, especially amongst low-skilled employees), but do so a lot more cost effectively than UBI since you wouldn’t be guaranteeing paym…

> something minimum wage can’t do because of the labor shortage it creates It's important to read economic literature beyond old dead economists because many modern economists disagree with this, or think it doesn't paint a full picture of the situation. Noah Smith comes to mind.

Or how about the big elephant in the room that nobody seems to be bring up; the effect on small businesses that can’t afford to pay employees $15 or $20/hr. So, instead of helping the poor, these policies raise unemployment and actually are a detriment to the overall health of the economy.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#32

Post by Turing_Machine »

SmokyBourbon wrote: post #20
azey47 wrote: post #5

I agree UBI is better than a minimum wage, but it seems a Negative Income Tax as advocated for by Milton Friedman would be still better. It would have the desired effect of supporting the poor with guaranteed income (something minimum wage can’t do because of the labor shortage it creates, especially amongst low-skilled employees), but do so a lot more cost effectively than UBI since you wouldn’t be guaranteeing paym…

Andrew Yang: > I am a huge fan of a negative income tax, but I prefer a UBI for multiple reasons. It lowers the administrative burden because you don’t need to figure out how much I made last year. It removes any strange shenanigans in terms of trying to report a low income. It alleviates a payments timing issue — you’re not likely to get your negative income tax when you might need it. And politically, I think it’s…

I see no reason why a direct quote from Andrew Yang (probably the best-known proponent of UBI at the present time) should be flagged to death in this conversation. Vouched -- which doesn't indicate that I necessarily agree with him. I just hate people who are making a valid contribution to the conversation being mobbed down.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#34

Post by jnwatson »

JPKab wrote: post #11

The minute UBI gets instituted is the minute that politicians will arise who want to lower the quantity for one group of people and increase it for the group of people that supports them. Eventually it will end up being means tested in one form or another just like the income tax system has been made so complex by politicians favoring one group over another. I absolutely love the idea of UBI but I just don't see it s…

That already happens with income tax. That’s exactly what the Trump tax cuts accomplished.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#35

Post by Robotbeat »

nodesocket wrote: post #31
A12-B wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> something minimum wage can’t do because of the labor shortage it creates It's important to read economic literature beyond old dead economists because many modern economists disagree with this, or think it doesn't paint a full picture of the situation. Noah Smith comes to mind.

Or how about the big elephant in the room that nobody seems to be bring up; the effect on small businesses that can’t afford to pay employees $15 or $20/hr. So, instead of helping the poor, these policies raise unemployment and actually are a detriment to the overall health of the economy.

You need to re-read the comment you’re replying to.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#36

Post by ChuckMcM »

I agree with most of the comments here about how UBI == negative tax, its really just changing the names of transfer payments in the economy.

That said, the really appealing thing is that it allows wages to be unbound from the question of supporting the poor. If people are below the poverty line you can raise UBI, but you don't have to put your thumb on the scales of the labor market.

But to not just re-create welfare, you have to completely dissolve the tie between UBI and taxable income. And to do that effectively you boost the marginal rates above your cut off point.

You could plot that to show how much the UBI was a net increase to your annual income and then design the tax rates to have it be effectively 100% reclaimed as tax after $400K AGI or what ever number you pick.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#37

Post by vidarh »

overton wrote: post #19

Authors like this frame the UBI/minimum wage debate as if we just haven't figured out the right policy mix to fix poverty or precarity -- as if it's a problem of ideas. I propose that it's in fact a question of power -- 1) who benefits from people being poor and how much 2) power do they have? 1) Owners of capital, who don't want to see their labour costs escalate and use firing/the poverty gun as a disciplinary tool…

Indeed you'll find that places with high degree of union power often don't have minimum wage and far less interest in UBI, because there tends to be tariff agreements and welfare systems in place that makes these things seem rather redundant.

The continuation of poverty in most of the developed world is a choice, and one that people keep voting for. As long as people keep voting to maintain poverty, it's a relatively pointless academic discussion.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#38

Post by pydry »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #23
pydry wrote: post #4

And why does the author not support both? It's articles like this that make me wonder if the purpose of the basic income movement is to act as a sort of pipe dream spoiler for more realistic progressive policies - like a $15 minimum wage. Either that or a plan to make welfare "fairer" by ensuring that disabled veterans who can't work and tech millionaires get the same $ amount each month from the government. Especial…

The concern is that we're soon going to reach a point where "our current economic order" - the assumption that every healthy adult should have a full-time job - is unsustainable. I wouldn't say I oppose a $15 minimum wage, and I don't think the author would either, but we do desperately need to start thinking about our transition to a post-work society and I worry minimum wage debates are sucking up a lot of the ener…

America is at risk of running out jobs, not at risk of running out of work.

It's all too easy to see a lack of infrastructure jobs, for instance, as a signal of a lack of demand. It isn't. America has crumbling infrastructure and a lack of jobs to fix it at the same time.

China turning off the trade tap will likely also stimulate the creation of jobs. iPhones will need to be made at home at some point in the not too distant future and they will still need plenty of people to do so.

Wealth re-redistribution will also stimulate demand, creating jobs. A lack of demand caused by a lack of wealth is not a "true" lack of demand.

When society starts lowering the retirement age to 50 and nobody frets about inflation ever - THAT'S when you know that full time work is really drying up. Not happening.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#39

Post by RangerScience »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #9
azey47 wrote: post #5

I agree UBI is better than a minimum wage, but it seems a Negative Income Tax as advocated for by Milton Friedman would be still better. It would have the desired effect of supporting the poor with guaranteed income (something minimum wage can’t do because of the labor shortage it creates, especially amongst low-skilled employees), but do so a lot more cost effectively than UBI since you wouldn’t be guaranteeing paym…

The only difference between a UBI and a negative income tax is framing. Suppose you have a negative income tax in the amount of $12,000 which phases out at a rate of 25% up to $48,000 in income, and a 5% marginal tax rate on people who make less than $48,000 and a 30% marginal tax rate on people who make more. Suppose you have a $12,000 UBI and a flat 30% tax rate. These are really the same thing. The advantage of th…

Isn't the another significant different in the logistics of distribution?

For UBI, you need to / get to have a direct line to every person/citizen. For NI, they come to you.

I honestly have no idea which one is better/easier from this perspective, it just seems like the logistics implementation is another significant difference.

Re: Universal Basic Income Is Superior to a $15 Minimum Wage (2019)

#40

Post by reaperducer »

overton wrote: post #19

Authors like this frame the UBI/minimum wage debate as if we just haven't figured out the right policy mix to fix poverty or precarity -- as if it's a problem of ideas. I propose that it's in fact a question of power -- 1) who benefits from people being poor and how much 2) power do they have? 1) Owners of capital, who don't want to see their labour costs escalate and use firing/the poverty gun as a disciplinary tool…

Lots of fun catch phrases, but unless you also propose a solution, it comes off like someone standing on a soap box in a campus quad preaching to three people.
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