University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty • Hacker News Board

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#151

Post by Balgair » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

lumost wrote: post #139

the_only_law wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, just let me purchase the fucking credentials without having to follow curriculum at their speed or pay for any of the things that won't benefit me anymore

This mindset is ultimately what many universities are optimizing for. The credential is pretty meaningless if it can simply be purchased, people will catch on quickly enough. The ideal business is then one that actively inflates the credential's value while lowering the difficulty of achieving it. The best way to do this is to increase selectivity/restrict supply, raise prices, lower difficulty (grade inflation), and…

> The best way to do this is to increase selectivity/restrict supply, raise prices, lower difficulty (grade inflation), and increase the time required to get the credential, while providing alternate activities for those who are inclined to do something other than receiving an education.

A mission that the Ivies are well on their way with. The average grade at Harvard is a 3.67 (as of a 2013 source) and the prices have never been higher (though that's an individual thing, what with scholarships). They only need to make it a 5 year program with a MA/MS tagged in to get really going; degree-inflation hopped onto grade-inflation and dollar-inflation.

Somehow, you then have to work Ultimate Frisbee or chess in there too, an athletics-inflation and club-inflation (?), so to speak. Kinda like Laurie Laughlin's daughter did with the varsity-blues scandal for admissions. I'd guess that's already happened then.

What do you end up with besides an empty savings account? A 22 years old with a very good resume and a very bad taste in beer and jazz.

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/12/9/stats-grade-inf...

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#152

Post by outoftheabyss » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

hot_fuzzybear wrote: post #108

As a fellow Czech, who studies in one of top 20 UK universities, let me add my two cents. As of 2020, UK universities are not worth the cost. The tuition fees alone amount to 27000 GBP (3-year undergrad) for British (non-Scottish) students with EU students now paying foreign student fees. I am still under SAAS scheme so I don't pay a single pound, which is why I am still here. Nevertheless, the cost is too high to pa…

Totally agree, though not unique to the UK and even more pertinent in most non-STEM subjects

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#153

Post by Grimm1 » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #67

woofie11 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the underlying problem is high tuition and high faculty salaries. Faculty used to be like a monastery, where scholars could live a simple life to nerd in their topic of nerdhood. Now, my alma mater pays high-tooting faculty nearly a megabuck, pays typical faculty $180k, has $200 million building projects, yachts, and what-not. Tuition went up multifold too. I'm more than happy to pay a bunch of nerds $60k per y…

What nerd with intellect would work as a professor if they could earn the significantly more money working for a hedge fund, FAANG, etc? Genuine question. The current academic hopeful spends their 20s in near-poverty level stipends and are more likely than not to never get a professorship as it is. If they did all that for 60k/yr why would they even bother? (Additionally I don’t know if it applies here, but often tha…

There is more to life than money is the simple answer.

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#154

Post by rscho » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #146

This is good. Too long have universities maintained the illusion that all subjects are worth studying. They are not. And we have a valuation mechanism - pay. The truth is that some subjects need far fewer participants than others. You don’t need the marginal new mathematician or historian or geographer. We do need the marginal electrical engineer or software engineer. It is crucial that we signal to students their pr…

That has to be the most capitalistic opinion I've read in a long time. This is in essence: "let's just limit access to studies yielding no current or short-term anticipated industrial benefit to rich people". This is what monetary valuation means.

What do you make of studies potentially yielding long-term benefits? Yeah, nothing. This is depressing.

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#155

Post by redis_mlc » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #28

morelisp wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of universities do not have a pure math faculty. If true this shocks me. Pure math makes up two of the seven liberal arts. The pure math department at my (US state) university had significantly higher status than the applied one, and this seemed to hold true for the other (also mostly state) universities my friends went to as well. Community colleges and technical schools? Sure. Colleges? OK I guess, if they…

I don't know of a single US research university that doesn't have a math department.

The article is about pure math, which is the foundation of mathematics using sets, topology, etc. It has separate classes, textbooks and professors from applied mathematics, and often a very low courseload because of the difficulty (like 24 hours per week.)

From a simplistic standpoint, pure math is not focused on equations or numeric solutions, unlike applied mathematics. (You don't need a calculator for most pure math classes.)

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#156

Post by wbl » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

preommr wrote: post #142

the_only_law wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, just let me purchase the fucking credentials without having to follow curriculum at their speed or pay for any of the things that won't benefit me anymore

I've been saying this for a long time now. Modern universities are a mix of two contradictory ideas. It's a place for "higher learning"; trying to fit the same role as institutions from hundreds of years ago where academic learning was much rarer and was fitted for the aristocracy. While simultaneously being something that you need for a job to make money. Oh, and also the people doing the teaching are more intereste…

Many of the professors I admired were top notch researches as well as great teachers. They go together more often then not.

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#157

Post by tgb » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #123

A thought experiment that has a surprising amount of predictive power is to view the universities as a system of single-party rule on the scale of the CCP, where they vie for power internally among themselves, and use the real economy to fund their effective system of sinecures. Viewed this way, it is purging principled and quantitative thinkers because they can't keep them on as a risk for where the party is going.…

You're suggesting that the math department is out of line with the universities propaganda? Are you aware that they're also axing humanities departments? They're not axing applied science departments. Your "experiment" doesn't really match reality.

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#158

Post by djrogers » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 5:02 PM UTC

netrus wrote: post #66

choeger wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, it contains a kernel of truth. I personally met staffers at my alma mater that worked there after failing to advance in their academic career but being too well connected to not have a safety net.

I always considered that part of a much needed safety net for a professional where stagnation in the hierarchy is no option, but there are less positions at the top than at the bottom. So yes, a kernel of truth, but not necessarily a bad thing.

It’s a bad thing when the cost of higher education is rising at rates 8-10x than inflation due to this excess administrative overhead.

If you’ve been out of school for >10yrs, I’d strongly encourage you to look at the current cost of your alma matter - it may well shock you.

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#159

Post by ssivark » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #146

This is good. Too long have universities maintained the illusion that all subjects are worth studying. They are not. And we have a valuation mechanism - pay. The truth is that some subjects need far fewer participants than others. You don’t need the marginal new mathematician or historian or geographer. We do need the marginal electrical engineer or software engineer. It is crucial that we signal to students their pr…

Where would you rank the marginal university administrator?

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#160

Post by woofie11 » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

kleiba wrote: post #101

woofie11 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, let's skip the twenties part. That's a relic of the hyper-competitive academic system. Normality is you start college at 17/18, finish college around age 21/22, and finish a Ph.D around 26. At that point, you take an academic job if you want one and appear qualified. You spend 7 years having fun as an assistant prof, doing what you love, and then, unless you've messed up, you have tenure. You don't have a strin…

Well, let's skip the twenties part. That's a relic of the hyper-competitive academic system. Normality is you start college at 17/18, finish college around age 21/22, and finish a Ph.D around 26. At that point, you take an academic job if you want one and appear qualified. You spend 7 years having fun as an assistant prof, doing what you love, and then, unless you've messed up, you have tenure. And now the German ver…

The really sad part of this journey is that most of those people, beyond youthful idealism, had no idea whether that dream was for them.

Because there is very little mobility into academia, MANY people land on the wrong side of the pond. You can't try industry and go back. One more difference is that colleges once wanted people with decades industry experience, and many older people saw going back to teach young'uns as a way of giving back.

It's not just older people. If you're in industry, and want to pursue a good idea for 5 years where you don't have elbowroom, or in academia and want to try to commercialize something, you break your academic track. It's possible with tenure, but I find many tenured academics distinctly underimpressive by the point they've gone through decades of abuse to get there....