Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

twitter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

741–750 of 988 posts

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#741

Post by zupreme »

This is an unfortunate example of a core danger of the app store (or Play Store, in this case) business model.

With devices, by default, configured to make it difficult to install apps directly, the store becomes the single point of failure.

And we engineers know, all too well, the dangers of single points of failure in any business-critical solution.

What well-run fortune 500 company, or government agency, would fully embrace and build a key business process around apps which can be made to vanish on the whim of an Apple or Google employee who takes issue with how someone fully disconnected from your organization (and maybe even in a different country) uses the same app you have rolled out to thousands of staff members?

In my opinion, the next logical step in “decentralization” of technology is to give mobile device users the same application control, logging, and monitoring powers over their devices that desktop, server, and notebook users have always enjoyed.

Does anyone else here see another logical path?

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#742

Post by khimaros »

sneak wrote: post #722
khimaros wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i disagree. the main repository enforces reproducible builds and restricts trackers. please keep the main repo up to date.

The main repository also signs everything with f-droid keys, not the original developer's. This means any compromise in f-droid compromises everything .

actually, it turns out this is no longer a limitation: https://f-droid.org/docs/Reproducible_Builds/

"Publishing signed binaries from elsewhere (e.g. the upstream developer) is now possible after verifying that they match ones built using a recipe. Publishing only takes place if there is a proper match."

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#743

Post by cxr »

khimaros wrote: post #698
cxr wrote: post #688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're also looking into running our own F-Droid repository going forwards That's great to hear as well.

i disagree. the main repository enforces reproducible builds and restricts trackers. please keep the main repo up to date.

Well, I disagree with your disagreement. Part of the value of F-Droid is that the main repository can host packages that are vetted and maintained by uninvolved parties. Second, if the Matrix-run repository does reproducible builds, then... there's no problem. (That's the nature of reproducible builds.) Third, F-Droid was conceived to be distributed and decentralized. That's why it allows you to add other sources in the first place, there's even a feature baked in that lets you get/share apps (including F-Droid itself) in-person with people around you, and under the hood the whole thing uses a DVCS-style model where the package index is "dead" data and your device manages a copy. Fourth, an app author choosing to run their own repository means that they're invested in F-Droid, moreso than instances where F-Droid's role is to achieve "mere availability" for the package.

What's more, this incident is evidence that we need more decentralization, not less. In instances where decentralization is either already working or is up for consideration, we should encourage it, not try to eradicate it.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#744

Post by e12e »

exikyut wrote: post #540
beowulfey wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that’s a lot of tooling to build for a single application—plus not everyone is tech savvy and installing from non-standard locations requires more user support

A 100K-sized company is going to have a BYOD or corporate device issuance program with tie-in to MDM, which effectively functions as a private appstore (the DPC (device policy controller) (itself an app) can silently install apps (as in, download APK from $anywhere, hand to PackageManager) without confirmation, etc). MDM infra is big bu$ine$$, but DPCs are quite simple to write. (Psst. They also let you read CPU usag…

> A 100K-sized company is going to have a BYOD or corporate device issuance program

Some will, some might run a more open org, with a lot of rather independent contractors, focusing on providing services on standard platforms (email, chat, wiki, bugtracker etc).

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#745

Post by orthecreedence »

throwaway3699 wrote: post #306
dathinab wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is just the free market in action. It's not free marked at all. Free marked is about having a competition between companies where the user decides who wins by buying the best products. The concept of a free marked was invented before there had been massive marked limiting factors like "lock down" of digital devices and similar. Somehow a lot of people still take all the original arguments why a free marked is…

I'm think GP is missing an /s :)

Actually not! I think capitalism always trends towards centralization of power. I went fishing for "actually, this isn't a free market because..." and caught me a big one.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#746

Post by georgyo »

mrighele wrote: post #633
drchaos wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the medium/long term, this would just train people to ignore those popups. Or to use a patched browser. There is simply no way to suppress content as long as there's enough demand. Somebody's always going to find a way to deliver. That's even true for really illegal stuff like drugs, copyright infringement or child abuse material, but so much more for content which is legal.

I was thinking specifically about PWA on Android. I don't think you can change the browser used in that case, and I could see Google decide that you cannot open a PWA if the website is on the blacklist.

Apple has a hard requirement that you use the safari rendering engine for all browsers. So even Firefox on iOS is really just reskined safari.

Android is much more open, you can download Firefox on Android and it will infact be Firefox.

What would be more scary is if the force all browsers on the Google store to implement and enforce the same deny list.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#747

Post by cma »

frivoal wrote: post #573
alangibson wrote: post #382

Something is being missed in these "Element isn't Parler because..." comments. Distinctions about client vs platform do not matter _at all_ to someone at Google headquarters. Content they find unacceptable is accessible, or it's not. Full stop. The FAANGs now have a strong incentive to boot anything and anyone making objectionable content available in any way because that's the way public sentiment has shifted. It's…

That's still weird though. By that logic, they should ban all web browsers, and mail clients… Content they find unacceptable is definitely accessible through those. Banning all applications that enable access to non-moderated decentralized content is simply not compatible with a phone being a smart phone.

Apple already does, no real third party browsers. Objectionable content has to go through their webview.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#748

Post by im3w1l »

SirensOfTitan wrote: post #567
Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is far from ideal, but someone attending FOSDEM is surely able to download an .apk from official site of Element and install it?

People always mention a workaround when this kind of stuff happens, but censorship can be heavily effective just by reducing access. If a medium sized business is looking at communication platforms, and element is suddenly not available on the play store, maybe they’ll just Google’s offering instead.

While I agree in general, if you are going to fosdem, you are part of a self-selected group that will jump this hurdle without second thought.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#749

Post by ttt0 »

yokem55 wrote: post #720
ttt0 wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People will surely point out the obvious differences between the takedown of Parler and Element and I'd agree that it's not exactly the same thing, since Parler is its own platform and Element is just a client. However, when looking on a bigger picture of the recent takedowns and trying to make sense of it, it does indeed seem to be connected. The only conclusion that seems rational to me is as follows: Everyone trie…

>If this is actually what is happening, the only solution as far as I see it, is to extend the First Amendment to social media. The first amendment works now by having clear boundaries between private and public spaces. Public spaces have clear first amendment protections. I can hold a sign on a publicly owned sidewalk (well, public right of way) begging for money or praising 'bong hits for Jesus'. But private spaces…

There is already somewhat of a precedent set for it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruneyard_Shopping_Center_v._R...

As to how you would implement it, Poland recently had a proposal that if you were banned from a social media website, you can appeal via the government in a certain period of time.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25736155

I'm not a lawyer, so I might be saying a bunch of nonsense here, but you could categorize the social media into topical (eg. HN is about technology) or "general purpose", off-topic services (Facebook, Youtube). Or just do it by the size of user base. Facebook has like a 2 or 3 billion users, let's not pretend it's the same as a comment section on your blog.

It's just to throw some ideas around, because again, not a lawyer, so I can't come up with a robust policy on the spot and take care of every potential loophole.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#750

Post by Erlangen »

pmlnr wrote: post #721
veeti wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being suspended for user generated content has been a rite of passage for third party reddit clients. It's crazy how this happens again, again and again. https://old.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/96l0at/sync_for_re... https://old.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/6dwv1f/boost_for_r... https://old.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/5fqrr8/now_for_red...

There is a significant difference there though: reddit is still a single, central entity. Matrix, XMPP, email, (and activitypub based systems, ssbc, and anything federated) could be connecting to one's own server. It could be a machine in my basement.

I don't see the difference. "Sync for reddit" a custom client for reddit. It was suspended for "hate speech". Then why isn't the official reddit app not suspended?
Post reply on HN