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Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

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Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#701

Post by wsc981 »

8note wrote: post #230
wsc981 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mussolini had a somewhat different view, quote: >”Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." See: https://roanoke.com/news/local/quote-of-the-day-benito-musso...

What would Mussolini have thought about filling the Italian government with brits or Germans? They definitely had the Italian enthocentrism with the trying to recreate the Roman Empire thing

> They definitely had the Italian enthocentrism with the trying to recreate the Roman Empire thing

Sure, but I think the main point Mussolini tried to make with this statement is that corporations are just an extension of the state in a fascist society. At least that's how I read it.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#702

Post by tabbott »

Arathorn wrote: post #3

So we got notified by the developer console at 21:45 UTC that the app had been suspended, but still haven’t had an email to explain why - it’s 02:24 now. Our assumption that this is due to someone reporting abusive content in Matrix to Google, and Element catching the blame — although this is currently speculation. To be clear: Element is a Matrix client just as Chrome is a Web browser, and just as it’s possible to v…

I'm really upset that this happened to you folks, and it's scary, because incident could just as easily have happened to us at Zulip (or any other OSS app that connects to self-hosted servers!).

I expect we'll never get a useful explanation from Google for why this incident happened -- abuse teams, like fraud teams, are worried about the bad guys using the explanations to tune their tactics and so tend to never explain anything.

But the details of how Google screwed up here also don't matter. A sudden Friday night suspension of a popular, legitimate app is insane! That possibility shouldn't be in the flowchart.

I get that for malware/spam/etc., it's important to immediately suspend, but I don't understand why Google doesn't take more seriously the very negative harm caused by doing that to a legitimate app. Some notice and appeal opportunity should be required before suspending a popular app by a legitimate publisher.

I'm upset, and a bit scared, but I can't say I'm surprised. This sort of random/erroneous/arbitrary punishment without explanation happens all the time with Google and other major tech companies. And every app developer I've met has experienced _significant_ disruption to their app publishing efforts due arbitrary/random rejections by an Apple app store reviewer, and this has been the case for years, so we can pretty confident that the vendors won't improve unless they are forced to do so.

There needs to be regulatory oversight of the Google/Apple app stores and the negative consequences for everyone else of their error-prone and ruthless enforcement processes.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#704

Post by Cyphase »

Arathorn wrote: post #680
cxr wrote: post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will Matrix respond to this by pointing out that F-Droid is a viable option for people intending to publish or use FOSS apps?

good point; have updated the blog post.

FYI, unless you're providing reproducible builds to F-Droid signed by your key (which doesn't seem to be the case), that APK is going to be signed with a different key. So it's either uninstallable over top of a Play Store-derived APK, or if someone does install it who doesn't currently have Element installed, they won't be able to install a Play Store-derived APK later – at least not without uninstalling first, and unless they do that with the right adb option, they'll lose any app data they have.

Ideally you could set up reproducible builds and make sure that the version in the default F-Droid repo stays up-to-date, but reproducible builds may not be practical for you right now (I'm not sure). Barring that, as you mentioned in the blog post, setting up your own F-Droid repo with self-signed APKs is a good option.

I haven't yet played with Matrix nearly as much as I would like, but I love the vision. Thanks for your efforts!

Also nice plug for F-Droid; they're doing good work as well.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#705

Post by darkwater »

sundarurfriend wrote: post #533
duckmysick wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It allows only free and open source apps, which might be a no-go for some.

They allow adding alternate repositories, but the ones I've come across have all also only allowed FOSS apps. I wonder if it's a policy any repo has to follow or if it's possible for someone to create a non-FOSS repo too.

I might be wrong but I don't think most non FOSS apps authors would be fine with an unwanted third party publishing their software on their repo.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#706

Post by inshadows »

olah_1 wrote: post #661
unethical_ban wrote: post #399

Don't forget that F-Droid is a thing, and Android still has at least that much freedom - to install your own software. Who would have thought 30 years ago someone would be saying "People can run any code they want on their computer" as a shocking thing.

F-Droid bans apps for “hate speech” too[1]. Any mastodon app that refused to blacklist Gab got banned from F-Droid or something like that. It is the perfect example of why I don’t even bother with federated projects. It’s just “wouldn’t it be great if _I_ were in charge?” If that’s the situation, I’d rather Big Tech be in charge because at least they have some name recognition and hierarchy for decision making. Nobod…

App Store is about central authority. F-Droid is about freedom to add whatever repositories you deem useful. It's up to operators of F-Droid-the-repository to decide what they want to host. But it's up to you to add another repository to the list. You say there's no other repository hosting Gab? That is not a problem that can't be dealt with. Unless network operator decide to ban routes, it's just a work (setting up a repository and trust) that needs to be done.

EDIT: This is mentality I find hilarious. It's either I can something for free or I can't get it at all. I think freedom in this case is about having something with little expended work.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#707

Post by Dylan16807 »

nobody9999 wrote: post #353
Dylan16807 wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory it's nice, in practice are there phones that you can root without leaving the bootloader in a vulnerable state? And it looks like the future is a situation where it's impossible to prevent software from detecting unlocks and refusing to run.

>In theory it's nice, in practice are there phones that you can root without leaving the bootloader in a vulnerable state? I've always just unlocked the bootloader, then installed TWRP[0] (or similar) and then re-locked the bootloader. Once a reasonable recovery partition is in place, you don't need keep the bootloader unlocked. [0] https://twrp.me/

And then how do you actually do the rooting in a way that doesn't make your phone fail to boot? What model of phone?

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#708

Post by zaroth »

conradev wrote: post #676
zaroth wrote: post #666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But why? Matrix is tiny and no threat to Google services. There is an absolutely unprecedented shift going on as we speak, one of those groundswell events that have the potential to shift usage habits of hundreds of millions of people. We got a taste just recently with the shift away from WhatsApp based on a TOS update . Imagine arguing last year that ten million users would jump ship based on a TOS change? Matrix,…

Google has no (competitive) horse in the messenger race, so while that theory might fit your ideological point of view, I don’t understand why Google itself would have any incentive (or grounds) to remove an open source chat app. How is Matrix a threat to Google?

Google counts up every minute users spend using their electronic devices.

In their world view, every single minute per day spent looking at screens that don’t have Google ad targeting is a minute that a competitor is stealing value from Google.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#709

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

brettwilcox wrote: post #374
Arathorn wrote: post #3

So we got notified by the developer console at 21:45 UTC that the app had been suspended, but still haven’t had an email to explain why - it’s 02:24 now. Our assumption that this is due to someone reporting abusive content in Matrix to Google, and Element catching the blame — although this is currently speculation. To be clear: Element is a Matrix client just as Chrome is a Web browser, and just as it’s possible to v…

I'm testing Element and Matrix at American Airlines. There are big players with clout that take issue to instability such as this. How can I rely on my company using Element when it gets pulled? Not cool Google... To the element team, reach out to me if you can't get the support you are looking for.

Big players with clout can commission their own closed access app. The C levels just need to take a $0.5M hit among themselves.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#710

Post by pferde »

vbezhenar wrote: post #592
GlitchMr wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, yeah, I think you are right here. That said, the reason for removal provided by Google seems to be nonsensical ("abusive content somewhere on Matrix", really?), so mediation should be effective here. This particular reason easily applies to an application like Google Chrome, and EU regulation 2019/1150 requires differential treatment to be documented, which I don't think it is in this case.

Chrome has “malicious website” feature to censor any website they want. Does Element have anything similar?

Yes, any Element user can report abusive or offensive content to admin of the Matrix server they connect to, and admin can remove the content locally and/or block remote Matrix servers from which the content originates. At their discretion.
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