U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#241

Post by masonic » Thu, Jan 28, 2021, 8:32 AM UTC

kibwen wrote: post #211

isoskeles wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what has planted this worry in your mind? * https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/03/best-whit... * https://www.news24.com/news24/columnists/melanieverwoerd/mel... * https://3downnation.com/2020/06/02/dear-white-people-its-tim... * https://medium.com/i-taught-the-law/shut-up-white-people-950... * https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-06-11/a-time-to-spea... * https://select.timeslive.co.za/ideas/2020-06…

The quote that shows up in several of those links: "I’m no longer engaging with white people on the topic of race. Not all white people, just the vast majority who refuse to accept the existence of structural racism and its symptoms." It sounds like you have answered the above poster's question about how to join in: by "accept[ing] the existence of structural racism and its symptoms". > The word "planted" implies tha…

  If someone wants you to listen, it is self-evident that they want your help

Help? Or compliance?

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#242

Post by masonic » Thu, Jan 28, 2021, 8:51 AM UTC

orangecat wrote: post #110

mjevans wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California, from every source I've seen, has a major, systemic, generations long market failure. The supply of housing has been nearly inelastic while demand remains high, with the obvious results. However there are also less obvious results given the time domain involved. The problems have followed those retiring out of California's market as other regions follow in the same footsteps. As an example; the greater Sea…

California, from every source I've seen, has a major, systemic, generations long market failure. Failure, yes. Market, no. Local governments will point guns at you if you try to build more housing.

There are about 4,000 added units within a mile radius of me (Santa Clara / Sunnyvale border) in an 18 month span (would have been a year without Covid)... nearly 3,000 adjacent to Lawrence Expressway alone.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#243

Post by Broken_Hippo » Thu, Jan 28, 2021, 10:02 AM UTC

krupan wrote: post #232

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are being manipulated or are hired because they are cheaper than the staff custodians, who probably have fewer hours because of the school's practice of child labor. Even after a minimum wage increase, the school will still have to vacuum the floor. I'm guessing it'll just have the other staff do this now, who aren't children.

Why shouldn’t children do jobs that they are able to do? Do you know how awesome those kids feel when they get that paycheck?

Because we shouldn't be dependent on child labor, especially when they should be expected to do schoolwork. We can make children feel good about a paycheck by paying them to go to school if we'd like.

I can't verify they feel good about getting a paycheck. I have generally been happy to have a bit of money, but I've never cared that it came from a paycheck and realistically, despised that I had to work while going to school (mine was later, in college). I'd have went without if it were a reasonable option.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#244

Post by kibwen » Thu, Jan 28, 2021, 1:56 PM UTC

masonic wrote: post #241

kibwen wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quote that shows up in several of those links: "I’m no longer engaging with white people on the topic of race. Not all white people, just the vast majority who refuse to accept the existence of structural racism and its symptoms." It sounds like you have answered the above poster's question about how to join in: by "accept[ing] the existence of structural racism and its symptoms". > The word "planted" implies tha…

If someone wants you to listen, it is self-evident that they want your help Help? Or compliance?

If you're trying to suggest something, feel free to come out and say it rather than obliquely alluding to some vague conspiracy.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#245

Post by krupan » Thu, Jan 28, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #243

krupan wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn’t children do jobs that they are able to do? Do you know how awesome those kids feel when they get that paycheck?

Because we shouldn't be dependent on child labor, especially when they should be expected to do schoolwork. We can make children feel good about a paycheck by paying them to go to school if we'd like. I can't verify they feel good about getting a paycheck. I have generally been happy to have a bit of money, but I've never cared that it came from a paycheck and realistically, despised that I had to work while going to…

You seem very comfortable with the idea of imposing what works for you, your preferences, on others. You might want to think about that some more

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#246

Post by TLightful » Thu, Jan 28, 2021, 5:22 PM UTC

akhilcacharya wrote: post #167

TLightful wrote: post #64

But trillion dollar tax cuts? But billionaires getting more billionaire'er? But Trump stonks!? But trickle down!!? But, but, but ... I don't understand?

Wait until you find out who was president in 2020!

An orange dildo.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#247

Post by Broken_Hippo » Thu, Jan 28, 2021, 6:54 PM UTC

krupan wrote: post #245

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we shouldn't be dependent on child labor, especially when they should be expected to do schoolwork. We can make children feel good about a paycheck by paying them to go to school if we'd like. I can't verify they feel good about getting a paycheck. I have generally been happy to have a bit of money, but I've never cared that it came from a paycheck and realistically, despised that I had to work while going to…

You seem very comfortable with the idea of imposing what works for you, your preferences, on others. You might want to think about that some more

You might want to rethink yours. You are arguing for child labor with emotional manipulation (Some 14 year olds - children - will be sad to lose a job)

I realize that folks are different. However, In a lot of places and situations, child labor is illegal - and 14 is considered child labor in so many situations. When they do work, it comes with massive restrictions. This is soley because we, as a society, generally feel that the focus should be on school instead of work. If we cannot pay young folks on par with adults, we shouldn't hire them.

As a sidenote: I'm guessing that the real reason the school hired them is because they are cheap labor - soft exploitation - and so long as their rate is less than paying a member of the custodial staff (who would have to pick up the slack), they won't be out of a job.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#248

Post by krupan » Thu, Jan 28, 2021, 8:55 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #247

krupan wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem very comfortable with the idea of imposing what works for you, your preferences, on others. You might want to think about that some more

You might want to rethink yours. You are arguing for child labor with emotional manipulation (Some 14 year olds - children - will be sad to lose a job) I realize that folks are different. However, In a lot of places and situations, child labor is illegal - and 14 is considered child labor in so many situations. When they do work, it comes with massive restrictions. This is soley because we, as a society, generally fe…

You seem to put a lot of weight behind this term, Child Labor. I understand that in the past and in some places still today children were/are essentially treated as slaves, and that’s possibly what you are thinking when you write Child Labor. I agree 100% that that is evil.

I assure you that these teenagers are not being mistreated, and there are adults doing this same job with them. Our society has come a long way. No teen spends 100% of their time on school work. Like anyone, they have a price they are willing to trade their time and labor for. Why should they, or anyone not be allowed to make that trade?

And yes, it is an emotional argument. We are emotional beings. Doing a useful job and being rewarded for it satisfies those emotions immensely.

In addition to that, it teaches things in ways that a classroom simply cannot. In a very real way it is paying them to get some education, as you suggested.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#249

Post by edmundsauto » Thu, Jan 28, 2021, 8:58 PM UTC

kibwen wrote: post #182

edmundsauto wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question: how can poor whites join with POC, given how the systemic racial injustice narrative has developed? I would be worried about a “this protest isn’t about your situation, white person” response. (Given the current tenor)

> I would be worried about a “this protest isn’t about your situation, white person” response. (Given the current tenor) A genuine question of my own: what has planted this worry in your mind? What tenor do you speak of? The demographics of the US mean that any policy that POC want to enact has to also be supported by enormous numbers of white people; that POC-friendly policies have ever passed is evidence that worki…

There exists bitterness towards white women, who "joined" the civil rights movement in the 60s. The criticism is they stopped fighting once their issues were starting to be addressed.

The whole idea of reframing around class is to say "I know you think race is the primary differentiator, but I really think it's class/money/power". That is a negation of BLM, whose purpose is to bring attention to black Americans' rate of being murdered by police.

Remember the response to "All Lives Matter"? (Putting aside the bad faith actors), a number of people think police violence in general should be the #1 priority. The responses are often, "yes, all lives matter - but right now we're talking about black lives." Remember the cancer-walk comparison? If you show up to a breast cancer walk, trying to talk about prostate cancer, you're being a jerk. (The analogy here would be to show up to the breast cancer walk talking about how it's not even about cancer - all diseases need more awareness.)

It's very complicated. Attention is a limited thing, and while it'd be great if we could care about BLM and poor whites and addicts and immigrants, that doesn't seem to be how the public's collection attention works. Reframing the problem might be a better solution, but I don't think progressives would be receptive towards the reframe.

Thanks for the thought provoking discussion. I personally agree with your statement that it's really about the "shared fight against intergenerational poverty", but I'm not brave enough to try and lead the reframe because I think both sides would reject it. I think this route would address many of the core issues that have led to the Trumpworld voters, who don't care what the stance is as long as someone is fighting for them.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#250

Post by newen » Thu, Jan 28, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

krupan wrote: post #233

newen wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ones being subsidized are the kids' employers, not the kids.

I’m pretty sure I’m feeding and clothing my kids. I mean, I get what you are trying to say, but the fact is, everybody has a different price they are willing to work for based on their circumstances. Sweeping nationwide minimum wage laws are not the best solution for that.

Everybody has a different price they are willing to work for based on their circumstances but that doesn't mean you let them do that. Allowing people to work for low wages drives down wages for others, which is undesirable for lots of reasons including income inequality and not wanting people with families to become poor. Sweeping nationwide minimum wage laws is certainly one solution for that.