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U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

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Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#181

Post by ttoomm28 »

syops wrote: post #131
hintymad wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty obvious that there has been an enlarging wealth gap and poverty rate has increased. What I don't understand is that the current narrative is to attribute such unfortunate events to systemic racism. Shouldn't we at least look at class difference, shift of industry trend, impact of policies, i.e., take the holistic view?

I contend that the real tragedy of American politics is that what ought to be class/labor issues gets sidetracked into race issues. If poor whites would stop thinking in terms of race and instead think in terms of class and economic justice then real progress could be made. Lyndon Johnson had a famous quote about just this. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lbj-convince-the-lowest-wh...

poor whites are the least likely class in america to think in terms of race i would think

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#182

Post by kibwen »

edmundsauto wrote: post #139
syops wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I contend that the real tragedy of American politics is that what ought to be class/labor issues gets sidetracked into race issues. If poor whites would stop thinking in terms of race and instead think in terms of class and economic justice then real progress could be made. Lyndon Johnson had a famous quote about just this. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lbj-convince-the-lowest-wh...

Genuine question: how can poor whites join with POC, given how the systemic racial injustice narrative has developed? I would be worried about a “this protest isn’t about your situation, white person” response. (Given the current tenor)

> I would be worried about a “this protest isn’t about your situation, white person” response. (Given the current tenor)

A genuine question of my own: what has planted this worry in your mind? What tenor do you speak of? The demographics of the US mean that any policy that POC want to enact has to also be supported by enormous numbers of white people; that POC-friendly policies have ever passed is evidence that working with white people is par for the course.

To attempt to answer your original question, it depends on what you mean by "join".

The simplest answer is to bring it back around to class and recognize the shared fight against intergenerational poverty: support social programs that disproportionately benefit the poor of all races e.g. a livable minimum wage, expanded worker protections, public healthcare, etc.

If what you mean instead is to start a conversation about the unique ways in which poor whites are disadvantaged, well that's fertile ground but it also requires acknowledging that whites and poor whites have schismed into, effectively, entirely different races (they don't intermarry, they don't socialize together, they hold different values, have different cultural touchstones, etc). That's a difficult conversation to have, and you're going to find a lot of resistance from plenty of poor whites who still want to associate their identities with a holistic "whiteness" that they still long to be a part of. But someone has to start the conversation, even if it's uncomfortable, because the alternative is that the powers-that-be continue to wield that longing as an instrument by which to motivate poor whites to vote against the social programs that would benefit them.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#183

Post by Mountain_Skies »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #163
lordloki wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll notice that the rise in media reporting on systematic racism correlates strongly with the rise in discussions about class difference, industry trends, globalization, etc. The latter was Bernie Sander's platform before he was "challenged" by BLM during the 2016 primary. Not to imply that Sanders didn't previously support BLM, but he rhetoric changed after that. It was clear to me that Sanders thought the primar…

My mind is blown. But I'm an anticonspiracy theorist. What can explain why race differences move us so much more than class?

Perhaps that's not the case organically but it seems that way because the media has been beating that drum relentlessly for the past half decade or so, in the process creating the actual strife they had been magnifying.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#184

Post by adolph »

tharne wrote: post #92
bmitc wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think using the word regress seems to imply that it was improving. Wealth inequality in the U.S. has been getting worse at faster rates, even before 2020.

I don't know why we always go back to income inequality, it's not a useful metric. What matters is how many people are living good, prosperous lives. You can have have income equality simply by keeping everyone equally poor, or you can have prosperous societies where some people have a lot more than others, but everyone is doing well. Income inequality is only meaningful if the amount if wealth and prosperity in a so…

The US is primarily a materialist individualistic society where good is defined by commercial mimesis and folklore of the particular outweigh that of the common. Expressing concern for “income inequality” signals a virtuous desire for all to attain a nirvana of stuff attained through the magic of money.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#185

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

syops wrote: post #131
hintymad wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty obvious that there has been an enlarging wealth gap and poverty rate has increased. What I don't understand is that the current narrative is to attribute such unfortunate events to systemic racism. Shouldn't we at least look at class difference, shift of industry trend, impact of policies, i.e., take the holistic view?

I contend that the real tragedy of American politics is that what ought to be class/labor issues gets sidetracked into race issues. If poor whites would stop thinking in terms of race and instead think in terms of class and economic justice then real progress could be made. Lyndon Johnson had a famous quote about just this. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lbj-convince-the-lowest-wh...

I totally agree. He's a similar sentiment from about 70 years earlier:

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/409615-you-are-kept-apart-t...

The upper class needs some way to turn the middle against the lower--otherwise how can they justify their share of the wealth? Currently that way has to do with melanin.

If we can figure out how to leave racism behind, and I surely hope we can, they'll have to find a new way to divide us. I wonder what it'll be.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#186

Post by gizmo686 »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #163
lordloki wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll notice that the rise in media reporting on systematic racism correlates strongly with the rise in discussions about class difference, industry trends, globalization, etc. The latter was Bernie Sander's platform before he was "challenged" by BLM during the 2016 primary. Not to imply that Sanders didn't previously support BLM, but he rhetoric changed after that. It was clear to me that Sanders thought the primar…

My mind is blown. But I'm an anticonspiracy theorist. What can explain why race differences move us so much more than class?

History.

The history of the US is far more rasist then it is classist; and there has been far more social movements along racial lines then class lines.

While we have had (successful) class based movements in the past, there is no class based analog in US history to the civil rights movement, or abolition. Even school children understand what Martin Luther King day is about; most American's couldn't tell you what Labor Day is about.

When there was a global movement for class based solidarity, the US found itself on the other side of the fight. (I'm referring to cold war era communism).

Even if a class based approach makes more sense now; there is a lot of institutional and cultural inertia behind a race based approach.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#187

Post by roenxi »

edmundsauto wrote: post #139
syops wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I contend that the real tragedy of American politics is that what ought to be class/labor issues gets sidetracked into race issues. If poor whites would stop thinking in terms of race and instead think in terms of class and economic justice then real progress could be made. Lyndon Johnson had a famous quote about just this. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lbj-convince-the-lowest-wh...

Genuine question: how can poor whites join with POC, given how the systemic racial injustice narrative has developed? I would be worried about a “this protest isn’t about your situation, white person” response. (Given the current tenor)

They could consider trying negotiation.

'The narrative' doesn't unconditionally control what people do. There are also multiple narratives out there and people get to subscribe to the one they want. If someone builds up an income-based coalition then the idea of 'systemic racial injustice' will fade away in favour of looking for more money.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#188

Post by JPKab »

cle wrote: post #46
pradn wrote: post #26

The poverty rate is an awful metric. It simply counts the number of people who earn below a certain income. So people dipping $1 below the line are counted the same as those dipping $10,000 below the line. So, poverty-rate alleviation measures can be implemented simply by focusing on the top end of those under the limit - of course, this doesn't help much. What we should really worry about is the poverty gap - the am…

I don’t know how this is typically measured (or measured in this specific case because I can’t find the actual paper), but do economists generally apply the same dollar threshold to everyone across the country, or do they account for regional cost of living?

Stupidly, no, the standard poverty rate doesn't take into account cost of living, AT ALL.

When adjusted for cost of living, California, not Mississippi, has the highest poverty rate, for example.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#189

Post by iguy »

Aunche wrote: post #162
pietrovismara wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Some people seem to refer to poverty as living with the standards of 2000 years ago. Of course we improved. That doesn't mean that relative poverty is getting worse and that other factors like free time have worsened if compared with centuries ago.

>other factors like free time have worsened if compared with centuries ago. This might be true if you consider being holed up with your family for the entirety of winter as "free time." Also, these studies always neglect the amount of random work that needed to be done before technology (e.g. fetching water from a well, chopping firewood, weaving baskets, etc).

Even ignoring time spent doing non-work things we don't do, free time has increased a lot over a century. We have good data on this. Factory shifts circa 1900 were long, and 2-day weekends rare.

Unless "centuries ago" means several centuries, in which case maybe it's murkier, the pre-industrial world was different. IIRC hours worked increased in the pre-industrial build-up to the revolution -- perhaps because there was more to buy, and people adjusted to try to buy things, rather than stopping when they had enough to eat.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#190

Post by isoskeles »

kibwen wrote: post #182
edmundsauto wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question: how can poor whites join with POC, given how the systemic racial injustice narrative has developed? I would be worried about a “this protest isn’t about your situation, white person” response. (Given the current tenor)

> I would be worried about a “this protest isn’t about your situation, white person” response. (Given the current tenor) A genuine question of my own: what has planted this worry in your mind? What tenor do you speak of? The demographics of the US mean that any policy that POC want to enact has to also be supported by enormous numbers of white people; that POC-friendly policies have ever passed is evidence that worki…

> what has planted this worry in your mind?

* https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/03/best-whit...

* https://www.news24.com/news24/columnists/melanieverwoerd/mel...

* https://3downnation.com/2020/06/02/dear-white-people-its-tim...

* https://medium.com/i-taught-the-law/shut-up-white-people-950...

* https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-06-11/a-time-to-spea...

* https://select.timeslive.co.za/ideas/2020-06-09-dear-white-p...

* https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/30/why-im-no-long...

I'm not certain what you're asking or what you mean by "planted." The word "planted" implies that an idea with no basis in reality was put into this person's head. Seems like a strange way to word it if you're asking that question in good faith.

Anyway, I'm not speaking for the person you responded to, my point here is simply that there are people with loud enough voices saying "white people" should "shut up." That is what I see as part of the current tenor, which would mean that some white people aren't going to bother engaging in this.

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