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IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

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Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#561

Post by alacombe »

Closi wrote: post #167
piokoch wrote: post #14

This smells like some really bold and really ridiculous PR attempt. "Ikea uses about one percent—yes, one percent—of the world's entire commercial wood supply. That amounts to about 17.8 million cubic yards of lumber last year. " [1] I guess they need this PR purchase to appease some eko organization. And this is equally ridiculous. Ikea is making furniture, something people really need. Why they have to explain them…

17.8 million cubic yards is such a crazy unit of measure. If we convert that into acres we get... c11k Acres. So they have bought and protected roughly what they will use across the next year, effectively like an offset.

Only if they do that every year.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#562

Post by alacombe »

StillBored wrote: post #497
hibbelig wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> _Note: A tree is useful and carbon negative only if it is growing a tree in forest that has stopped growing is mostly useless for offsetting carbon,_ Don't trees grow till they die?

I think the point is that after it dies frequently it will release all the stored carbon back into the atmosphere. In the case of turning the tree into furniture its really what happens at the end of the furniture's life. If it ends up buried in a landfill then the carbon is probably sequestered for a few hundred years, but if it ends up going through an incinerator for electricity/etc generation then its not actuall…

> I think the point is that after it dies frequently it will release all the stored carbon back into the atmosphere

Only if it burns, dead tree are generally eaten away over decades by insects, fungus and birds.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#563

Post by alacombe »

gigatexal wrote: post #152
piokoch wrote: post #14

This smells like some really bold and really ridiculous PR attempt. "Ikea uses about one percent—yes, one percent—of the world's entire commercial wood supply. That amounts to about 17.8 million cubic yards of lumber last year. " [1] I guess they need this PR purchase to appease some eko organization. And this is equally ridiculous. Ikea is making furniture, something people really need. Why they have to explain them…

I thought it might be a tax harvesting plan. Dunno. Last I looked into Ikea I thought their whole corporate structure was odd: the stores are part of a non-profit holding company that licenses the brand and furniture as art or something to that affect. Seems dodgy.

Of course, everybody is doing that.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#564

Post by ashtonkem »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #540
Jochim wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 401k has the specific purpose of helping individuals fund their retirement years, something society has agreed is worth providing some benefit for. There is an element of intention to the exemption and it serves a specific purpose. > If anyone can do what they're doing, then I don't see it as particularly negative. Typically not just anyone can do this, smaller firms do not have the resources set-up these schemes.…

>A 401k has the specific purpose of helping individuals fund their retirement years, something society has agreed is worth providing some benefit for. There is an element of intention to the exemption and it serves a specific purpose. A 401k has the specific purpose of helping large businesses maintain a competitive advantage over small businesses. If the government wanted to help individuals fund their retirement ye…

While there are certainly issues in the tax code, you’re absolutely just making up the history and intent of the 401k. The 401k was not setup to help big business, quite the opposite. They were setup as an explicit alternative to the pension systems that historically were how employees retired, and pensions absolutely favor large companies that can afford them. 401k programs allow much more employee choice and mobility, which they’ve arguably achieved.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#565

Post by stkdump »

dahfizz wrote: post #534
stkdump wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gotta love victim blaming. The problem isn't complicated tax laws, the problem is that the governments making them are national entities that have to answer to their national voting population and companies like IKEA are international entities, so have a very easy time to do stuff that is inside the letter but outside the spirit of the laws of the various countries.

> The problem isn't complicated tax laws > have a very easy time to do stuff that is inside the letter but outside the spirit of the laws That's like saying "My buggy spaghetti code isn't the problem, the user should just never do something that hits an edge case. My code doesn't need to change"

No, it is not about one persons code, which was exactly my point.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#566

Post by ashtonkem »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #536
ashtonkem wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be making the argument that if it’s legal, it’s not immoral. I reject this argument completely. By necessity the law does not (and cannot) cover every single aspect of human behavior. Just because what IKEA is doing is legal does not make it right. Nor is it inappropriate for a private citizen to condemn behavior they disapprove of, whether or not it’s legal. As far as where the ethical line is, that is a…

>You seem to be making the argument that if it’s legal, it’s not immoral. Yes, I would say that legally reducing one's taxes is not immoral. >By necessity the law does not (and cannot) cover every single aspect of human behavior. Yes, but in the case of tax law, the complications are created specifically to allow loopholes, and/or to allow the government to not have to transparently state costs. I would posit that an…

> Yes, I would say that legally reducing one's taxes is not immoral

No point in continuing this conversation then.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#567

Post by t-writescode »

Jochim wrote: post #444
johnp314 wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'abuse' is a subjective word, you could have left off the 'ab' and you sentence would still be correct, arguably more correct. Also, why not consider that by using the complex web of tax laws to their advantage allows them to sell products at a lower price. This allows folks with lower incomes to enjoy similar products to those who can afford getting their stuff from more posh places. One could judge Ikea to be more…

This is the same kind of mental gymnastics that gave us trickle down economics. The societal ethics, morality and the spirit of the law should all be taken into account when judging behaviour. Exploiting tax structures in order to conceal income is absolutely immoral and shouldn't be tolerated. This is especially egregious when the tax loopholes are effectively gated behind behing a multi-national corporation. It lea…

Immoral or shrewd?

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#568

Post by ssully »

megablast wrote: post #518
tshaddox wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the furniture market is just insane. If you want a chest of drawers, you either pay $100 for a cheap flat pack self-assembled one from IKEA and take it home today, or similar prices for a similar one online from Wayfair.com (a bit more of a gamble), or you pay over $1000 for something that won’t show up for 6 months. It’s bizarre that you can buy a brand new car with cash and take it home today, but the supply…

Or you get a good one second hand for $50?

Finding something good second hand takes time and luck. A lot of second hand stuff is garbage because the good stuff is snatched up quick.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#569

Post by snoshy »

worldvoyageur wrote: post #557

It's none of my business if Ikea wants to buy productive forest land and take it out of production. However, I don't understand how it is any kind of signal of virtue. Would it be virtuous to buy productive farm land and take it out of circulation? How is forest land any different? In a previous life, it would be broadly correct to say that I worked in the forest industry. My body still hurts when I think about it. I…

The difference in this particular case is that Ikea is not taking productive forest land and taking it out of production. It is taking naturally forested land that is at risk of deforestation that would ostensibly then be used for a monoculture wood farming industry.

If this land was used for timber, it would reduce biodiversity in Georgia. That would unquestionably be a bad outcome for the environment. Deforestation and a reduction in biodiversity is a major problem the world faces, and it impacts much more than just the trees and plants - much of wildlife like animals, insects, and fish are losing their natural habitat and being driven extinct as a result of this practice.

You can hype up timber forestry tactics all you want, but what Ikea has done is a good thing for the world, no matter how disingenuous they might be due to their products consuming large amounts of timber for furniture.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#570

Post by mdrzn »

Ygg2 wrote: post #318
nom wrote: post #256

I never understood why people hate IKEA. Yes it's cheap. Yes it doesn't last a lifetime. Yes it needs a lot of wood. Yes it's highly optimized. But guess what, IKEA is a business responding to the needs of people. The negatives that are mentioned frequently are merely a symptom of our ever faster developing society. The people who complain are the same ones that just buy cheap crap from china without even thinking ab…

I bought an IKEA desk and tried to assemble it myself. Between the poor wood quality, bad paint job, hard to connect components and painful assembly process, I gave up and got a refund. I asked a friend of a friend that's a carpenter and he made way better desk for same amount of money.

I bought a mechanical IKEA desk (that goes up and down in height), spent at least 20% less than all the other online options I found available and they shipped to me in 5 days. Knowing how to follow instructions, I just assembled it in 30 minutes and it's the desk I now use daily at home.

This just to say that YMMV based on the item you buy, where you live, what's your experience with "self assembling" items, etc.

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