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The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

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Re: The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

#51

Post by MaxBarraclough »

apabepa wrote: post #19

I am not a front-end developer but looking at it from a distance I really don't get modern web design. Sure some sites might need fancy javascript single page features, like if your webpage is an interactive map or realtime game, but most sites are just text and some pictures. Whats with all the javascript? Your site looks just like the next one anyway! It feels like an "Emperor's New Clothes" situation or maybe more…

From what I can tell the short answer is that you're right, there's really no good technical reason for all that weight. Which is to say, it's just bloat.

Much has been written on this. Here's an article from 2018. (I realise the irony in that it's hosted on Medium.) https://medium.com/@addyosmani/the-cost-of-javascript-in-201...

Re: The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

#53

Post by bachmeier »

Not really the point of the article, but I've been moving to plain HTML for a while now for certain types of personal documents. It's a great feeling to open a file in the browser and know it's going to work. Make a change and all you have to do is refresh the page. Markdown, org-mode, etc. have good intentions, and they work for super simple documents, but in the end the flexibility of html and its closing tags pays off.

Re: The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

#54

Post by ogre_codes »

elliekelly wrote: post #18
ogre_codes wrote: post #10

This is a fantastic article, it does miss one very key point about bog-standard HTML which is worth mentioning though. The standard widgets are all accessible, people with screen readers, limited mobility, poor vision, etc, all rely on pages being written so the devices they use to read the web can function properly. People who choose to eschew these standard components very frequently end up with a site which is unu…

> Very few people have the skill to turn a div into an effective button, yet over and over I see web sites with rows of buttons which are in fact just divs with javascript behind them. What was the catalyst behind this trend? I just don’t understand the reason behind it. Hasn’t been around forever? Was there some limitation on the button tag that made the div tag more desirable?

I suspect a lot has to do with the fact that it's easier to slap together a quick list/ menu thing than it is to make a select box look the way a designer wants it to. Similarly with calendar components, radio buttons, etc.

Re: The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

#55

Post by mattl »

tshaddox wrote: post #17
mattl wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what if the device can't or won't run JavaScript?

What if a device doesn't have a web browser? Or a display? Or a network connection? At some point you have to make some basic assumptions about the platform you're targeting.

There are many web browsers that don't support JavaScript, and JavaScript is something that can be quite easily turned off in many browsers that support it. Harder than it used to be, if anything.

Re: The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

#56

Post by kodt »

elliekelly wrote: post #18
ogre_codes wrote: post #10

This is a fantastic article, it does miss one very key point about bog-standard HTML which is worth mentioning though. The standard widgets are all accessible, people with screen readers, limited mobility, poor vision, etc, all rely on pages being written so the devices they use to read the web can function properly. People who choose to eschew these standard components very frequently end up with a site which is unu…

> Very few people have the skill to turn a div into an effective button, yet over and over I see web sites with rows of buttons which are in fact just divs with javascript behind them. What was the catalyst behind this trend? I just don’t understand the reason behind it. Hasn’t been around forever? Was there some limitation on the button tag that made the div tag more desirable?

Perhaps because buttons have some default styles attached and people just decided to use a div.

Re: The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

#57

Post by nabla9 »

I suspect there is a growing web developer conspiracy to fight overconsumption and climate change.

I see slow websites with carousels of large images with big texts. They link to value statements, mission statements, experiences, goals, community bullshit. If you want to know products, prices, or even what the site is all about, you must squint your eyes and really concentrate, maybe scroll down to the bottom of the page. I save €1000 per year in impulse buys because of these sites.

Re: The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

#58

Post by kstrauser »

antihero wrote: post #4

Different solutions for different problems. You have a different design requirement when you are designing something for use by the most vulnerable and those without access to reasonable technology. This absolutely needs to be factored in when choosing how to build something, however, this is a tiny subset of users, and this is for essential life-is-in-the-balance types of service. The vast majority of users will hav…

In the US, we collectively decided (via elected representatives) that this is important to us, and we passed the ADA to enforce it. Visually impaired people have as much right to use stuff as you and I do, and the law says so.

From a purely economic point of view: if your competitor's website supports the visually impaired, and yours does not, then even though that's a relatively small market segment you're probably giving away 100% of it. And blind people have friends and family too, and they'll also send all of those people to your competitor.

Re: The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

#59

Post by sct202 »

apabepa wrote: post #19

I am not a front-end developer but looking at it from a distance I really don't get modern web design. Sure some sites might need fancy javascript single page features, like if your webpage is an interactive map or realtime game, but most sites are just text and some pictures. Whats with all the javascript? Your site looks just like the next one anyway! It feels like an "Emperor's New Clothes" situation or maybe more…

Some people are used to using javascript packages (so importing a whole framework when they are only using a small portion of the functionality) to help with UI like collapsing/expanding menus depending on the screen width. You can do a lot of those things with pure CSS now, but that's a more recent thing and a lot of popular tutorials are still JS + CSS.

Re: The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

#60

Post by cptskippy »

pbronez wrote: post #38
ogre_codes wrote: post #10

This is a fantastic article, it does miss one very key point about bog-standard HTML which is worth mentioning though. The standard widgets are all accessible, people with screen readers, limited mobility, poor vision, etc, all rely on pages being written so the devices they use to read the web can function properly. People who choose to eschew these standard components very frequently end up with a site which is unu…

Are there any automated ways to assess a web product against the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG)? This should really be part of the CI/CD process.

Yes, there are a lot of tools. None are great and are mostly for compliance.

Products like Siteimprove are targeted at Enterprise (e.g. demos with sales weasels, unpublished pricing, etc). They mostly suck but check an auditing and compliance box.

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