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The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

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Re: The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

#11

Post by another-dave »

antihero wrote: post #4

Different solutions for different problems. You have a different design requirement when you are designing something for use by the most vulnerable and those without access to reasonable technology. This absolutely needs to be factored in when choosing how to build something, however, this is a tiny subset of users, and this is for essential life-is-in-the-balance types of service. The vast majority of users will hav…

I don't think the problem is that niche though. Even outside of accessibility concerns, there are plenty of times I've tried to use websites on smartphones within intermittent internet access — e.g. on the London underground checking in to a flight on the way to the airport or ordering a pizza when coming home late from work.

In both scenarios, I'm trying to complete my task as quickly as possible while I still have a good connection. A simple HTML page (with JS layered on top for fancier stuff) would be plenty to get the job done. Instead you get hindered by sites that aren't optimised in any way for slow devices or slow internet.

Heard that Facebook before had "2G Tuesdays" where the product teams throttled their internal net speeds to 2G while browsing the site to see what it was like ­— that should be the standard for dev teams. The trouble is so many things are designed and tested by people on T1 broadband in a downtown office, but that's not the set-up of a majority of their users.

Re: The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

#12

Post by simias »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #2

Client-side javascript is underrated. We put simple websites in embedded devices with shockingly low memory/flash. They're for configuring the device. The pages are pretty serviceable with html controls, color schemes, logo etc. Embedded javascript to make them responsive. A couple of kilobytes total html.

I concur. I wrote a web interface for a crappy 20yo DSP last year, the thing doesn't even have an MMU and only 32MB of RAM. I basically put all the code in the browser, on the device there's only a very simple C HTTP server that serves the static files and blobs of data. In the end the UI looks fairly modern and responsive even though the backend is potato hardware.

I wouldn't say that client-side JS is underrated though. If anything I'd argue that the modern web heavily abuses it. Try browsing twitter or youtube with Javascript disabled for instance. The site simply won't work.

Re: The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

#13

Post by DHPersonal »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #5
mattl wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what if the device can't or won't run JavaScript?

I didn't make myself clear. The embedded device is the web server in this setup. The browsing device (phone, tablet etc) runs javascript. You're right, no way a tiny embedded device runs javascript.

The PSP does, but it's pretty limited.

Re: The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

#14

Post by throwaway1239Mx »

antihero wrote: post #4

Different solutions for different problems. You have a different design requirement when you are designing something for use by the most vulnerable and those without access to reasonable technology. This absolutely needs to be factored in when choosing how to build something, however, this is a tiny subset of users, and this is for essential life-is-in-the-balance types of service. The vast majority of users will hav…

Making things more accessible rarely has a downside for folks who don't need it in my experience, and often has an upside. My favorite example is doorknobs - think of a round doorknob vs one with a lever. People with broken/missing fingers/hands or fine motor impairments will have a much easier time opening a door with a simple lever vs gripping and turning a round doorknob, and so will a person with two fully intact hands who is also carrying groceries. (edit: corrected italics)

Re: The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

#15

Post by arcturus17 »

ogre_codes wrote: post #10

This is a fantastic article, it does miss one very key point about bog-standard HTML which is worth mentioning though. The standard widgets are all accessible, people with screen readers, limited mobility, poor vision, etc, all rely on pages being written so the devices they use to read the web can function properly. People who choose to eschew these standard components very frequently end up with a site which is unu…

> Making your site accessible isn't just a good practice, in the US, it is the law

> Courts have rules that the ADA applies to web sites along with any other type of business

For a business like a coffee shop I'd imagine that accessibility is codified in law through things like building regulations (ie, you must have n disabled parking spots per square foot, a disabled toilet, etc)

Is there an equivalent legally codified and enforceable standard for the web?

Re: The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

#16

Post by glitchc »

antihero wrote: post #4

Different solutions for different problems. You have a different design requirement when you are designing something for use by the most vulnerable and those without access to reasonable technology. This absolutely needs to be factored in when choosing how to build something, however, this is a tiny subset of users, and this is for essential life-is-in-the-balance types of service. The vast majority of users will hav…

I hear you: Businesses have no incentive to cater to niche segments of the population as they are not revenue drivers. What you call "enhanced experience," I translate to "adverts" (what else?).

How can government compel businesses to provide better experiences? Why, standards and regulations of course.

Re: The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

#17

Post by tshaddox »

mattl wrote: post #3
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #2

Client-side javascript is underrated. We put simple websites in embedded devices with shockingly low memory/flash. They're for configuring the device. The pages are pretty serviceable with html controls, color schemes, logo etc. Embedded javascript to make them responsive. A couple of kilobytes total html.

And what if the device can't or won't run JavaScript?

What if a device doesn't have a web browser? Or a display? Or a network connection? At some point you have to make some basic assumptions about the platform you're targeting.

Re: The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

#18

Post by elliekelly »

ogre_codes wrote: post #10

This is a fantastic article, it does miss one very key point about bog-standard HTML which is worth mentioning though. The standard widgets are all accessible, people with screen readers, limited mobility, poor vision, etc, all rely on pages being written so the devices they use to read the web can function properly. People who choose to eschew these standard components very frequently end up with a site which is unu…

> Very few people have the skill to turn a div into an effective button, yet over and over I see web sites with rows of buttons which are in fact just divs with javascript behind them.

What was the catalyst behind this trend? I just don’t understand the reason behind it. Hasn’t been around forever? Was there some limitation on the button tag that made the div tag more desirable?

Re: The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

#19

Post by apabepa »

I am not a front-end developer but looking at it from a distance I really don't get modern web design. Sure some sites might need fancy javascript single page features, like if your webpage is an interactive map or realtime game, but most sites are just text and some pictures. Whats with all the javascript? Your site looks just like the next one anyway! It feels like an "Emperor's New Clothes" situation or maybe more likely I just don't understand the allure as an clueless user.. I am almost tempted to make a webpage to see what the big fuss is about!

Re: The unreasonable effectiveness of simple HTML

#20

Post by pbronez »

Love this:

> Go sit in an uncomfortable chair, in an uncomfortable location, and stare at an uncomfortably small screen with an uncomfortably outdated web browser. How easy is it to use the websites you’ve created?

It's so easy to get disconnected from the real-world applications of our technology. Build user empathy.

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