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Split keyboards and how to build them

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Re: Split keyboards and how to build them

#181

Post by justtocomment »

Something to be aware of:

most (all?) of these keyboards give the thumbs more to do than merely pressing the "space" key. This is awesome, because thumbs are strong and relatively quick.

However: with the exception of those sculpted keyboards (Dactyl-ManuForm et.al.), the thumb keys are triggered by lateral thumb movement, which can be troublesome.

I had absolutely no problems using traditional keyboards for ~30 years, but decided to proactively switch to a split keyboard (ReDox) nonetheless.

Mostly it's great, but I developed pain in my thumbs from the constant uncommon (to me) lateral thumb movement.

I replaced the thumb switches with lighter ones and remapped my keyboard layout to use only 4 of the available 12 thumb keys, but it's still not ideal.

I'm thinking about building one of those sculpted keyboards now.

Re: Split keyboards and how to build them

#182

Post by Symbiote »

wussboy wrote: post #11
Pet_Ant wrote: post #10

I just ordered the evolved version of the Ergodox EZ, the Moonlander. https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ I expect it plus relearning Dvorak will be a pain but I want to set myself up for life and it seems like a good investment.

I'm sure everyone has an opinion about this, but if encourage you to learn Colemak instead of Dvorak. All of the standard keywords shortcuts (copy, paste, undo) are two hand operations in Dvorak which for me was a huge break up of my workflow.

Standard touch-typing advice is to use opposing hands to type combinations like "Shift+A".

On an ergonomic, split keyboard this might be less important: the modifier keys are often under the thumbs, and on both sides.

Also, it's fairly easy to program the keys however you like, e.g. make a "Fn" key, so Fn+DvorakQ sends Ctrl+X.

Re: Split keyboards and how to build them

#183

Post by Cu3PO42 »

kiesel wrote: post #180

Having a good keyboard is important (not only for ergonomics, but also for efficiency) in our business. But I find I'm having difficulty when temporarily switching from US to DE keyboard layout, or when using a mac (vs linux) - so what would using a completely custom keyboard do to my general computer user ability? This is why I never considered buying one of these...

I find that changing the layout creates significant mental overhead for me as well, so I just don't do it. I use the NEO layout [1] which contains all the characters and symbols I could possibly need in reasonable locations. I barely need to leave the home row to write any of the symbols needed during programming or writing TeX.

As for physically different keyboards, I've found it to be a much lesser issue than I expected. I recently got a Moonlander [2] due to general hand and wrist pain that could only be attributed to strain from typing.

I took care to map the layout quite closely and the physical layout was almost immediately usable. I started at around 2/3 my normal typing speed but was back to 100% in a matter of a week.

Going back to a normal keyboard takes minimal effort. I can still type on them quickly, I just loathe them more than I did before now that I know how much more comfortable it could be.

[1] https://neo-layout.org/

[2] https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/

Re: Split keyboards and how to build them

#184

Post by Symbiote »

dehrmann wrote: post #89

I keep looking for something like a mechanical version of the MS Sculpt keyboard. I like that the sides are solidly attached, the slight tenting, and that there's a bit of a profile to the keys--they're not just planar. Too many of the ergonomic split keyboards are infinitely adjustable, but the adjustments are finicky.

There's the Cloud Nine C989 [1] (though I don't know how the mechanism to keep the two halves attached works), or for a DIY option there's the NEK Type A [2].

For the profile of the keys themselves, you can make small changes to an existing keyboard by changing the keycaps -- although it's not always easy to find all the sizes required for an unusual keyboard. See [3]. I have SA keycaps on an otherwise-flat keyboard.

[1] https://c9ergo.com/products/cloud-nine-c989m-ergonomic-keybo...

[2] https://github.com/ecopoesis/nek-type-a

[3] http://xahlee.info/kbd/keycap_profiles.html

Re: Split keyboards and how to build them

#185

Post by soenkeliebau »

Symbiote wrote: post #178
soenkeliebau wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have looked at that keyboard a lot and am really tempted to splurge, but .. What is putting me of is the missing dedicated cursor keys at the bottom right. I use a layout on my current keyboard that has cursor keys on e,s,d,f with a modifier and use that a lot, but not exclusively.. I have the same issue with the ultimate hacking keyboard and others. Has that bothered you at all, or did you find a layout that works…

The Moonlander (and most of the ones being discussed) is fully programmable, so you can move the keys around as you wish. I have ← ↑ ↓ → in a line on the four lower keys on the right of my ErgoDash. Not having the ⊥ arrangement took a little time to get used to. I considered some fancy QMK (keyboard firmware) hacking to keep the inverted T, and have the key above ↓ change between Z and ↑ depending on the keypress bef…

I've looked at a few Moonlander setups for the keyboard layout that I use on their site [1][2][3] and to my mind the right half is simply missing one column of keys to get a proper cursor key block. Even the lying-L option ─┘ would mean missing the right shift key (which of course should probably be on the thumb block) and getting used to something different.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but for me being from Germany the keyboard is even more expensive than it is anyway and I'm not sure I'm willing to pay that much for the hope that I can adjust to it.

[1] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/mzD9d/la...

[2] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/60ynN/la...

[3] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/jXjMx/la...

Re: Split keyboards and how to build them

#186

Post by Cu3PO42 »

matsemann wrote: post #130
bonchicbongenre wrote: post #99

I recently was gifted -- very, very generously! -- a Moonlander Mark I split, ortholinear keyboard [0] (made by the same company that previously made the Ergodox). It's genuinely fantastic, and I can't ever see myself going back to either a non-split or a non-ortholinear board as my desktop's input. It's a huge improvement ergonomically -- (0) no hunched shoulders, with the halves at shoulder width (1) the ortholinea…

> It's a huge improvement ergonomically But what if you need to use a mouse? Then what I've found best ergonomically is to use a "rollermouse". But I don't feel that works well with a split keyboard, and then I prioritize the mouse. (For me my elbow is the biggest issue)

I have tried a bunch of things for this issue. I tried placing a trackpad between the two halves, I tried it on either side as well. It didn't really work for me.

What I landed on is a) mapping the mouse to an extra layer that I use when I only need minimal movement, b) using VIM extensions for as many programs as possible, including my browser and c) just using a normal mouse otherwise.

Re: Split keyboards and how to build them

#187

Post by Symbiote »

jvolkman wrote: post #74

I just use the one Microsoft sells for $60. What am I missing? https://www.bestbuy.com/site/microsoft-ergonomic-keyboard-bl...

Additional thumb keys.

The Microsoft keyboard is good (their best yet, I think), but only Space and the two Alt keys can be pressed with the thumb.

On my keyboard², I have Alt, Backspace, Ctrl, and "Fn" for my left thumb, and "Fn", Enter/Ctrl¹, Space, Alt with my right thumb. Slightly less comfortably, I also have Esc (left) and Delete (right).

The Kinesis Advantage 2³ is the most common mass-produced keyboard with thumb keys like this.

¹ It's enter if I tap it, and Ctrl if I press it in combination with another key

² http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/501437fce9123e...

³ https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/

Re: Split keyboards and how to build them

#188

Post by dsissitka »

ashkankiani wrote: post #168
piinecone wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn’t agree more. I’ve been using a Kinesis Advantage and a Mistel Barocco (when traveling) for years. I recently switched to the Moonlander and I love it. Coming from the Kinesis Advantage the adaptation period is short, and since the moonlander is so easy to program I didn’t really have to adjust my habits. If anything, I’m trying to learn that I can use its programmability to my advantage to make my life easi…

Why would you switch to the moonlander from the Kinesis? The curved design of the kinesis is way better for reducing strain than the flat style of the moonlander/ergodox. If the only factor is programmability, then I think that factor may be overexaggerated in how important it is. Know that anyone who wants to riposte that last point should realize that I'm not a novice to making my own keyboards or programming them.…

> Why would you switch to the moonlander from the Kinesis?

QMK. I think QMK is a bit like Excel in that everybody has that subset of functionality they use. I like layers and the leader key.

Open source firmware. I have a last gen Advantage I can't use because there's a bug in the firmware that causes modifier keys to stick and there's nobody left at Kinesis that remembers how to work on it. That will never happen with QMK.

Hot swappable switches.

Edit: I do miss the curve though. I'm using SA Profile keycaps [0] and while they're nice it's not quite the same.

[0] https://imgur.com/EZgGBdg

Re: Split keyboards and how to build them

#190

Post by blindluke »

Symbiote wrote: post #175
blindluke wrote: post #170

I wonder, is there a place one can buy a prebuilt 40% keyboard, with keycaps, the full shebang? Split or not, I'd love to have a portable mechanical keyboard to carry around, but I don't have the time nor patience to mess with a kit. Aby suggestions?

In Europe (though they deliver anywhere) there's Falba.Tech. They're on the expensive side due to the wooden cases. There's https://mechboards.co.uk/ in the UK, but no split options as far as I see. There's https://www.gboards.ca/ in Canada. (I'm sure there's someone in the US too, but I'm in Europe and haven't looked much beyond here.) [1] https://falba.tech/customize-your-keyboard/customize-your-mi...

Thank you. Falba is pretty much exactly what I was hoping to find, especially since I'm in Europe too. Appreciate the help.
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