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What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

jonbischke.com

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Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#101

Post by j123 »

pessimizer wrote: post #96
j123 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This I think is the wisest comment I've read here. We live in an age where many people earnestly believe they can reengineer society. They identify aspects of human nature which they don't like and think it's open to reeducation. There is such a thing as human nature. Tabula rasa is a myth.

Society has been re-engineered any number of times, to good and bad effect. If you think that how it is where you are right now is how it is, has been, and always will be everywhere, you're wrong. Society is made of people, including visionaries and others who are captivated by their visions and have the ability to implement them. Contemplating human society is not the same as contemplating the stars.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that there is no such thing as culture (as opposed to innate behavior) or that it couldn't change. But there are innate behaviors too. That newborns are a blank slate, a "tabula rasa" as Locke called it in Latin, to have whatever new form of behavior we want imprinted upon them is a fallacy. It was a hypothesis at one point, but now it's known to be false. Some facets of human behavior are largely the same for all times and in all places. Tribalism and territoriality, e.g. These things will always be with us. It's hopeless to think a day exists on the horizon in which these will be eliminated. A more mature approach is to accept humanity for what it is. Improve what can be improved upon and don't aggravate those features which are here to stay. Fossil fuels rushed humanity into a new era of mass immigration comparable to the "people wanderings" which characterize Late Antiquity in Europe. But it's now happened globally. It's popular to pretend we can overcome tribalism and territoriality. We'll see. If not, though, we're in for some excitement in the coming years.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#102

Post by lmkg »

hugh3 wrote: post #87
stonemetal wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a trivial example, in Sri Lankan culture, you don't say "thank you", "you're welcome" or give anycompliments. Instead, it is common to tell someone they look fat when you see them after a long time. I am not sure what you mean by your example. Telling someone they look fat when you haven't seen them for a while is a kin to saying you have done well for yourself and would be a complement. Mostly it just sounds like…

Interesting. My Chinese officemate greeted me with "I see you have more weight" when I came back after three months. Is it a popular thing in China too? Or was he just being a dick? (NB I really did have more weight, but everyone else was too polite to mention it...)

I dunno about China and Sri Lanka specifically, but in some cultures, being fat is seen as attractive. This is probably a signaling mechanism, being able to afford additional food and not needing to perform manual labor means that you are more successful. Being fat isn't so attractive in the West because having a sedentary job and access to excessive fat and carbs doesn't really signal anything much.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#103

Post by Dove »

krschultz wrote: post #49
ekanes wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually you can make $10,000 from nothing weeding or mowing. Of course, you have to be willing to do hard things like get rejected door to door, but it's extremely possible.

If 'nothing' == 'buying a lawn mower, a truck, a trailer, and a weed wacker' then you'd be correct. Although I'm not sure which part of the the Bronx you think I should setup my mowing business in because the last time I checked, there isn't any grass.

Think metaphorically. Around you are people with money who have to do odd jobs they don't like. If you're willing to do that work, they will pay you for it.

It doesn't have to be skilled. Think shoveling dog poop http://www.azcentral.com/ent/pop/articles/0420doody0420.html . If you can't find an equivalent where you live, you either live in a paradise where no one has annoying chores, or you aren't looking very hard.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#104

Post by peterhunt »

solson wrote: post #35

Having been poor (not 3rd world poor, poor by American standards) I found the most difficult thing is leaving the poverty stricken network. You don't feel like you've made it until you reject the entire mindset. Until then, you feel like you've sold out. My mother still makes me feel guilty and shames me every time I see her. Until you've had a parent who shames you for doing better than they did, you'll never unders…

When I was like 12 or 13, my dad (an attorney) was doing some patent work for an MIT grad student who later went on to be a professor of CS. I was interested in computers at the time and trying to teach myself, and as a favor, my dad asked him to show me a few things.

He ended up teaching me Scheme, getting me to commit to an open-source 3D engine and work on computer vision stuff over the course of my early high school years. I ended getting into a top collegiate CS program with a very low high school GPA - primarily because the work I was doing outside of the classroom was pretty good. This degree opened the door to a masters degree and made finding a job much easier.

Today, I'm 23 and working full-time. My dad has started reminding me why I got to where I am, and that I need to give back and do what was done for me - find an aspiring kid who wants to learn, and teach them.

Maybe there are some problems with the mindset of the poor, but I think that part of the problem is that I am probably going to find this kid through my own middle-class network and continue to perpetuate a culture of mentorship that is often inaccessible to the poor.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#105

Post by MartinCron »

pessimizer wrote: post #91
MartinCron wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat less cynical advice that I'll give to young people: Go to college, at least for a little while, and get a part-time job or an internship. Companies will hire a college student with little to no experience, but not a college graduate with little to no experience. Many people only figure this out when it's too late.

Agree completely. Also, college and internships are the best places to create social relationships with people with money. Remember that even though you may be intimidated by all of the fanciness and money around you in those environments, this is a period of time that rich people are actually slumming (assuming you're not at an expensive private/ivy league college) and will likely come into contact with more people…

That's a more cynical take on it than I was intending.

I was thinking of one's college internship as an opportunity to get practical experience and prove yourself as a competent person instead of just a place to add rich folks to your network.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#106

Post by Psyonic »

stcredzero wrote: post #99
api wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People will defend their self-inflicted misery. This is a big part of the dynamic of alcoholism, drug addiction, bad relationships, and stupid dogmatic ideologies. I've always thought that hell would be a place where everyone burns for eternity, but there's a way to turn off the flames. They never do because they are afraid of change, and because burning for eternity is a part of their self-identity.

People will defend their self-inflicted misery. This is a big part of the dynamic of alcoholism, drug addiction, bad relationships, and stupid dogmatic ideologies. I bet it plays into working life and the various "geek scenes".

Of course it does. The "geek's" stereotypical problems with women is a prison of his own design. Same with all sorts of health and diet issues.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#108

Post by Dove »

bane wrote: post #45
aantix wrote: post #9

This article has me reminiscing about the recent Linked-In IPO; I remember reading that the IPO was offered to favorable clients of the brokerage underwriting the IPO. I don't know how many "favorable" offerings are presented each year or what their performances are, but if the IPO is purposelessly undervalued to make their clients richer, how does one compete with that? I doubt a $100 or 10k account would draw enoug…

A similar example. Suppose you wanted to be an investor in a private company. In many localities you actually can't invest unless you have a certain level of net worth (something I've personally had to deal with at various levels of frustration until I just decided to found my own company). Everybody says the way to become wealthy is to let money make money for you, but you can find yourself locked out of most of the…

Everybody says the way to become wealthy is to let money make money for you

I don't think so. I guess it depends on what you mean by "wealthy", but I'd say that's the way to go from "rich" to "super rich".

The way to become wealthy is to spend less than you earn. A lot less. When you have savings on the order of several years' worth of income, then a healthy return is real money. Until then, your budget matters a lot more.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#109

Post by nate_meurer »

api wrote: post #70
solson wrote: post #35

Having been poor (not 3rd world poor, poor by American standards) I found the most difficult thing is leaving the poverty stricken network. You don't feel like you've made it until you reject the entire mindset. Until then, you feel like you've sold out. My mother still makes me feel guilty and shames me every time I see her. Until you've had a parent who shames you for doing better than they did, you'll never unders…

People will defend their self-inflicted misery. This is a big part of the dynamic of alcoholism, drug addiction, bad relationships, and stupid dogmatic ideologies. I've always thought that hell would be a place where everyone burns for eternity, but there's a way to turn off the flames. They never do because they are afraid of change, and because burning for eternity is a part of their self-identity.

Goddamn, that last sentence is a profound statement. I see it happen around me over and over again. Very well said.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#110

Post by bane »

rprospero wrote: post #93
bane wrote: post #64

Having been poor (U.S. standard) during much of my elementary and middle school years, and then escaped to a relative level of upper middle class comfort...there is one defining characteristic between my peers from back then who made it out of that situation, and those who are still there decades later: a broken decision making process best and the inability to plan exemplified in the famous Marshmallow test. http://…

I've seen the same thing and I've experienced your frustration. However, I also want to offer a counter-point to your argument. You keep coming back to the marshmallow test and how he can't make a sacrifice today for a greater benefit tomorrow. My question is whether he would send a $5,000 banking fee to a Nigerian prince today for a million dollar money transfer next month? Would you? Delayed gratification is only e…

As long as financial disaster is "unavoidable", he'll continue to make the only "smart" choice and immediately spend the little money that he does have before he loses that, too.

I think this is a great insight into why making sound decisions and delaying gratification seems to be such a problem for him and many people stuck in an endless cycle of bring poor.

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