What Really Keeps Poor People Poor • Hacker News Board

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#81

Post by MartinCron » Fri, May 27, 2011, 3:53 PM UTC

ajscherer wrote: post #65

jinushaun wrote: post #33

Blah blah white people. Blah blah blah black people. Same old story of white guilt by the NYT I'm neither white nor black, but I was definitely poor. Grew up in the ghetto with gang violence. The problem isn't "access" or outreach programs for poor people—the problem is and always will be the parents. My parents stressed the importance of education and now I do well. My friends' parents didnt, and most of them barely…

It's wonderful that your parents stressed the importance of an education. If only your education had stressed the importance of actually reading a piece before responding to it! Perhaps then you would have noticed that this piece: isn't in the new york times; doesn't talk about outreach programs for poor poeple; only mentions race via quoting a 1999 Malcom Gladwell piece The post argues that the income-boosting effec…

instead is due to the possibility of inclusion in a network of people who are all more likely to find success.

I recently looked into the University of Washington Technical Management MBA program and the University was pretty brazen about admitting this. They spent far more time talking about networks and ROI than academic rigor.

Business schools are all about networking and the social aspect. I feel that as an introvert, I got a lot less out of my undergraduate business education than many of my classmates did.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#82

Post by hugh3 » Fri, May 27, 2011, 4:02 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #53

j123 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"With many of them you risk violence, drugs, abuse, sexual abuse, racism, etc." This modern bugbear of racism is getting ridiculous. Did you really just equate "racism" with sexual abuse? What does racism even mean anymore? Is it only institutional discrimination, e.g. the refusal of the publicly funded government to hire some races? That's where it started. Now, you can be a racist if you have a type you prefer to d…

What does racism even mean anymore? It's a form of bigotry which is also deeply aligned with hate, often violent hate. It's probably the same thing that sparks sectarian violence. It can also reside, in a form without overt violent manifestation. Now, you can be a racist if you have a type you prefer to date that doesn't suit the whims of your accuser. I would admit that this isn't sufficient to label someone of raci…

It's a form of bigotry which is also deeply aligned with hate, often violent hate.

Meh, the vast majority of practical racism isn't really about hate. The most common form of racism is the over-generalization type -- most of the people of race X that you meet or see in the street have characteristic P, so you form in your mind the idea that "Xs have characteristic P". This, even when statistically true, is unfair to the Xs out there who don't have characteristic P, especially when P is negative, so it's a trap we need to avoid.

For every racist who actively hates another race, there's fifty who don't hate 'em but merely have negative beliefs about 'em, the same way I have negative and overgeneralized beliefs about (but don't actually hate) people who wear Ed Hardy t-shirts.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#83

Post by zacharytelschow » Fri, May 27, 2011, 4:03 PM UTC

"'We claim to be part of the American dream and of a system based on merit and opportunity and talent,' Mr. Marx says. 'Yet if at the top places, two-thirds of the students come from the top quartile and only 5 percent come from the bottom quartile, then we are actually part of the problem of the growing economic divide rather than part of the solution.'"

Is your college a meritocracy based on talent or a means of attempting to right social wrongs, Mr Marx? If it's the former, then the income of student's parents should be irrelevant and you should only be wringing your hands over lesser talented pupils getting in over more talented ones. If it's the latter, I can see your concern - patterns of behavior beget success and children often emulate their parents, leaving you stuck with those blasted high achievers. Tough break, that.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#84

Post by hugh3 » Fri, May 27, 2011, 4:03 PM UTC

mcdaid wrote: post #13

The latest attempt in the UK to deal with the problem http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/8540055/Schools-win-rig...

I read as much of the title as is in the truncated URL and really hoped it would be "Schools win right to use corporal punishment".

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#85

Post by omouse » Fri, May 27, 2011, 4:04 PM UTC

lionhearted wrote: post #52

krschultz wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 'nothing' == 'buying a lawn mower, a truck, a trailer, and a weed wacker' then you'd be correct. Although I'm not sure which part of the the Bronx you think I should setup my mowing business in because the last time I checked, there isn't any grass.

There was a great comment on here by Mahmud, I think, about how he used to make a few hundred dollars per day with a bucket of water and some sponges washing windows. It is possible to make money with work ethic and no capital.

By being a wage-slave, it's possible to make just enough money to live. Cool.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#86

Post by zacharytelschow » Fri, May 27, 2011, 4:07 PM UTC

api wrote: post #71

I've thought this for a long time. It's not the haves vs. the have-nots. It's the connecteds vs. the connected-nots.

This contentious relationship you state implies a fixed pie economy in which a person can get rich only at the sake of his fellows. Any thinking person would roundly reject such a notion.

On a similar topic is an essay by Paul Graham that you may enjoy: http://www.paulgraham.com/gap.html

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#87

Post by hugh3 » Fri, May 27, 2011, 4:18 PM UTC

stonemetal wrote: post #31

geon wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a slightly related experience. My wife is from Sri Lanka, and while she haven't herself lived in poverty, I recognize the social structure keeping it in place. As a trivial example, in Sri Lankan culture, you don't say "thank you", "you're welcome" or give anycompliments. Instead, it is common to tell someone they look fat when you see them after a long time. Interestingly, the Internet is changing this. My wi…

As a trivial example, in Sri Lankan culture, you don't say "thank you", "you're welcome" or give anycompliments. Instead, it is common to tell someone they look fat when you see them after a long time. I am not sure what you mean by your example. Telling someone they look fat when you haven't seen them for a while is a kin to saying you have done well for yourself and would be a complement. Mostly it just sounds like…

Interesting. My Chinese officemate greeted me with "I see you have more weight" when I came back after three months. Is it a popular thing in China too? Or was he just being a dick? (NB I really did have more weight, but everyone else was too polite to mention it...)

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#88

Post by Swizec » Fri, May 27, 2011, 4:27 PM UTC

api wrote: post #70

solson wrote: post #35

Having been poor (not 3rd world poor, poor by American standards) I found the most difficult thing is leaving the poverty stricken network. You don't feel like you've made it until you reject the entire mindset. Until then, you feel like you've sold out. My mother still makes me feel guilty and shames me every time I see her. Until you've had a parent who shames you for doing better than they did, you'll never unders…

People will defend their self-inflicted misery. This is a big part of the dynamic of alcoholism, drug addiction, bad relationships, and stupid dogmatic ideologies. I've always thought that hell would be a place where everyone burns for eternity, but there's a way to turn off the flames. They never do because they are afraid of change, and because burning for eternity is a part of their self-identity.

Just wanted to thank you for giving me an awesome tweet/quote/thing. Paraphrased as such: "Hell is a place where everyone burns for eternity, but doesn't put out the flames because they're afraid of change."

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#89

Post by bane » Fri, May 27, 2011, 4:43 PM UTC

huherto wrote: post #78

bane wrote: post #64

Having been poor (U.S. standard) during much of my elementary and middle school years, and then escaped to a relative level of upper middle class comfort...there is one defining characteristic between my peers from back then who made it out of that situation, and those who are still there decades later: a broken decision making process best and the inability to plan exemplified in the famous Marshmallow test. http://…

Great point. But if this is true the implication is that we are already limited by our natural ability to delay gratification? Furthermore, will we inherit this ability on our children. So they will be constrained too?

I don't know the answer to this, but I suspect that you can teach gratification deferment to many children who currently don't naturally have it -- though there will always be people who are unreachable.

I'm thinking children here because at least in my anecdotal experience, I've had no luck getting any of the poor adults I know to show even the most basic ability. Children can be more malleable in this way.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#90

Post by krschultz » Fri, May 27, 2011, 4:43 PM UTC

lionhearted wrote: post #52

krschultz wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 'nothing' == 'buying a lawn mower, a truck, a trailer, and a weed wacker' then you'd be correct. Although I'm not sure which part of the the Bronx you think I should setup my mowing business in because the last time I checked, there isn't any grass.

There was a great comment on here by Mahmud, I think, about how he used to make a few hundred dollars per day with a bucket of water and some sponges washing windows. It is possible to make money with work ethic and no capital.

I'm sure there are many ways to make money with no capital, I was responding to what I perceive to be the flippant 'if only poor people just WORKED, they wouldn't be so damn poor' mentality. A hell of a lot of people work their ass off and are still poor.

I'll go further than that. Hard work doesn't actually correlate with salary. I know this becuase I have an incredibly easy job while my cousin busts his ass everyday at two jobs. He works more hours than me a week, and each of those hours is far harder, and one of his jobs actually involves risk of personal injury. All of them are outside in the heat. He gets pissed off at me because he works so hard and I seem to not have to work at all, but at the end of the day, hard work is not a recipe for sucess. He does stuff that plenty of other people are willing to do, while I do stuff that a lot of people never bothered to learn (at some point, they probably decided that they 'didn't like math' and closed the door for themselves).

Hard work is a necessary but insufficient condition for sucess. Yes, you have to work your butt off in order to suceed; but you can toil everyday and get nowhere very easily. You have to work hard on the right things in order to get ahead.

That realization has a lot of implications. One of them is relevant for this conversation: working hard may or may not lift you out of poverty. You can't extrapolate from "he lives in poverty" to "he isn't working hard". I've worked at a McDonalds, I've pumped gas, I've mowed lawns. All of those jobs were significantly harder than what I do today, and all of them paid barely enough to support myself, much less work towards a better future.

You could work full time at McDonalds and then put in an extra 20 or 30 hours a week at another minimum wage job, and not get ahead. Or you can work full time at McDonalds and go to a vocational school at nights and probably get ahead. They are both equally hard work, but one will likely lead you to a better life and one won't. But that doesn't mean the people in the first group aren't working hard.