Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing • Hacker News Board

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#201

Post by FullNameAndy » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 6:34 AM UTC

tkgally wrote: post #198

I’m an older person who used to work out regularly in a gym before Covid. Since lockdown, I have spent a fair amount of money on exercise equipment for my home—dumbbells, elastic bands, and, especially, a cable crossover machine that cost a couple of thousand dollars. Even though I have no experience with rowing or rowing machines, your product is the sort of thing I might have considered buying last spring. Here’s m…

Thanks for the feedback! Looks like we have to make improvements in our marketing.

There are a variety of exercises that utilize the rower and are guided by instructions on the screen. Some involve the rower like bicep curls and tricep extensions (requires standing up and bending forward) and some don't like push-ups and dips.

We decided to incorporate some exercises outside of rowing because customers requested it. We are happy we did because the feedback has been great.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#202

Post by jrudolph » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 6:44 AM UTC

DrOctagon wrote: post #175

jrudolph wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly more accurate than most other ergs (that's how we rowers call them). However, it's not perfect. Nothing is ever perfect when it comes to measuring real world biomechanics. I did competitive rowing in my youth + I've spent a couple years building rowing technology, sensors + telemetry, so I can maybe offer a few interesting insights about their issues. Don't get me wrong, C2 ergs are great craftsmanship, bui…

Thank you for all that detail! A tangential question: At elite levels how well does performance on an ergo translate to on water performance? I rowed reasonably successfully at a junior level and I was much faster in a boat than others that would kick my butt on an ergo. This was always explained away as better technique. I’d be interested to know at a level where everyone has great technique if ergo/boat performance…

Ergs don’t float :-) The most important factor before converting raw erg performance (i.e average watts over a 2000m race) to water performance is to consider it in relation athlete mass. This is intuitive because more mass means more displacement creating more drag. The erg doesn’t consider any of that.

In our testing protocols we had a metric from watt vs mass called p-index. I’m not sure exactly how it’s calculated anymore but there should be a published paper about this somewhere [0].

The lightweights usually had higher p-index values than the heavyweights, though values from the top heavyweights that also did well where usually close to the lightweights. That’s just anecdotal though.

There are tons more differences. The next important factor that comes to mind is technique, obviously. My guess is the next biggest contribution to performance difference is the catch, how quickly an athlete is able to burry the blade in the water and apply force without losing precious stroke length. This requires precise timing of vertical and horizontal movement. You do it right when you see a small v shaped splash as the blade enters the water. The measurement for that is called slip angle. The erg is much less picky about that.

I already mentioned some other points in my previous post, I bet there is tons more.

[0] Volker Nolte, Dieter Altenburg and Valery Kleshnev are great starting points when it comes to rowing research. Theres plenty more if you dig in.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#203

Post by cycomanic » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 6:44 AM UTC

DennisP wrote: post #148

cycomanic wrote: post #63

Great idea! I used to be a competitive rower. When I was working at a gym during my studies I was actually talking with the managers of running some rowing classes (similar to spinning). I think the main challenge with rowing machines (and the reason why we didn't do rowing classes), is that for beginners there is essentially only hard or off, i.e. it is difficult to adjust to different exhaustion levels. That leads…

Why is it hard or off as a beginner? I had the same issue at first but now I can ease off and do a straight 30 minutes. I assumed it was mental but it sounds like it's technique. Fwiw I have the Oartec DX, and it's very solidly built. On dynamic rowers like this, the seat stays pretty much in one place and it's mainly the footpad that moves. Supposedly it puts less stress on the lower back and knees, and more closely…

I have not seen any quantitative data on this, so just going of my own anecdotal evidence. I think there is a couple of aspects to this. One, beginners tend pull way too much with their arms and that tends to tire you out very quickly (your arms are pretty small muscles compared to your legs). It also requires some experience on the ergo to learn that you can make hard or soft pulls at the same stroke rate (again this is difficult if you pull mainly with the arms), so beginners tend to just adjust stroke rate. The other aspect is that rowing produces lactate in pretty high rates because of so many muscles being involved. That takes a bit of getting used to.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#204

Post by pitaa » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 7:23 AM UTC

FullNameAndy wrote: post #192

beloch wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C2 really is the monster in the room. The rowing machine market is less diverse than exercise bikes, and C2 sits atop the mountain. Anyone who rows seriously (and many who don't) have used a C2 at some point. The Aviron Impact Series (an odd name for a low-impact exercise machine) rower is $2149, while a C2 Model D is $900. The Model D has been in gyms for decades. Literally, your local gym may have one that's decade…

Let me start off by saying the C2 is an amazing rower, but we thought we could improve on its design for the regular user who cares most about a fun and engaging experience. For example, the belt is industrial nylon (not plastic), the same material as seat belts. The main benefit to this is it makes the rower quieter and feels smoother. The rail is aluminum and legs and frame are made from steel, which makes it stabl…

> the belt is industrial nylon (not plastic)

Last I checked, nylon was still a thermoplastic.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#205

Post by ganafagol » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 7:26 AM UTC

FullNameAndy wrote: post #200

Ninjinka wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I missing something? Your site says $2149, not $1999. And it has a $29/mo membership.

After staying on the site for some time, a pop-up form asking for your email in return for an additional $150 off will appear. And yes, the membership is $29/mo or $25/mo if a year is paid up front.

Sorry for sounding negative but that's half a gym membership right there. Except for a gym membership I can go 24/7 down the block (5 min walk) get access to 8 C2 rowers, a bunch of barbells, dumbbells, treadmills and spinning bikes as needed, as well as a sauna and space to train in many different ways with friends. Covid will blow over, blowing 300 bucks on a subscription for such a narrow training gear will just not feel like the right tradeoff.

(Former competitive rower here, so YMMV.)

Alright, off to the gym. :)

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#206

Post by ganafagol » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 7:33 AM UTC

AWildC182 wrote: post #105

mawise wrote: post #26

> I feel like sometimes this pisses the hardcore rowers off but I’m not a rower, I’m a tech guy. I also think fitness is important and have been working out all of my adult life. Some other comments have mentioned the Concept 2 and how it's the standard. It sounds like you're actually targeting non-rowers who want a Peloton-like experience. (Sort of like how Peloton doesn't really target the cycling community). Is th…

Just for context, standard is defined on two fronts. 1. Each machine computes effective Watts differently, so pulling your guts out might be 1kW on one machine, and 400W on another. Whichever one everyone has the most experience with wins here. 2. There are a bunch of different designs across about three different resistance modes available A. air B. water and C. hydraulic piston. Air is generally regarded as the bes…

Couldn't the electric variant convert the energy into electricty? With the guys in the club we many times wondered why we can't use the 8x 250W that are pulled saturday morning to power a microwave oven and everybody gets heated lunch right after the workout? Or use it to drive an AC on a hot summer day.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#207

Post by Mulpze15 » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 7:35 AM UTC

I am very impressed with what you did, and thank you for sharing the back stories about dealing with manufacturers and the real life pains of troubleshooting customers.

This is real, tough entrepreneurship, and I am very surprised by the number of implied criticisms about how not perfect your product, price, positioning...

The number of issues you solved already, the fact you have a happy installed based is impressive. Further iterations will make it even better, feels like you've done the hardest part.... Congrats.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#208

Post by mingabunga » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 8:08 AM UTC

Mulpze15 wrote: post #207

I am very impressed with what you did, and thank you for sharing the back stories about dealing with manufacturers and the real life pains of troubleshooting customers. This is real, tough entrepreneurship, and I am very surprised by the number of implied criticisms about how not perfect your product, price, positioning... The number of issues you solved already, the fact you have a happy installed based is impressiv…

Came to say the same thing. Congratulations for persevering in the face of lots of frustrations, and coming out with a winner of a product. I know how much of a PIA getting physical products designed, manufactured and shipped is. Sounds like you have a lot of happy customers for the segment you're targeting.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#209

Post by DrOctagon » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 8:47 AM UTC

jrudolph wrote: post #202

DrOctagon wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for all that detail! A tangential question: At elite levels how well does performance on an ergo translate to on water performance? I rowed reasonably successfully at a junior level and I was much faster in a boat than others that would kick my butt on an ergo. This was always explained away as better technique. I’d be interested to know at a level where everyone has great technique if ergo/boat performance…

Ergs don’t float :-) The most important factor before converting raw erg performance (i.e average watts over a 2000m race) to water performance is to consider it in relation athlete mass. This is intuitive because more mass means more displacement creating more drag. The erg doesn’t consider any of that. In our testing protocols we had a metric from watt vs mass called p-index. I’m not sure exactly how it’s calculate…

Of course! Thank you. My rowing days are long behind me but when everything comes together there truly is no sport like it!

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#210

Post by kitd » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 10:01 AM UTC

jrudolph wrote: post #140

kitd wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other challenge I is related to hardware. The reason why everyone is talking about the C2s is that pretty much every other machine is crap. The forces pulling on these machines are substantive and concept managed to make a machine that held up over time, unlike the others. So I hope you guys made those things sturdy enough. Robustness isn't the only reason C2s are considered the best. Unlike all the cheap brands,…

Certainly more accurate than most other ergs (that's how we rowers call them). However, it's not perfect. Nothing is ever perfect when it comes to measuring real world biomechanics. I did competitive rowing in my youth + I've spent a couple years building rowing technology, sensors + telemetry, so I can maybe offer a few interesting insights about their issues. Don't get me wrong, C2 ergs are great craftsmanship, bui…

I fully take all your (excellent) points about the differences between the erg and the boat, but I was really talking about power measurement at the flywheel.

One point of yours though:

While everyone obsesses over watts, that's not the whole picture. To move a boat (virtual or real) you need work, not power

You are correct, but just for one stroke. The thing slowing down a boat or spinning flywheel is drag, which is a power dissipator. => Generating more power means you overcome more drag == go faster.

cf. when you take the rate up by reducing the time on the recovery while keeping work/stroke the same. Your speed increases as your rate of (the same) work increases.

edit: Also, forgot to mention this

Concept sells "Sliders" for the C2 ergs that you can use for a single erg but also to link together multiple ergs to a crew. If you haven't tried this, I can highly recommend this as it makes it much more realistic and also a lot more challenging.

I made my own! https://youtu.be/0BvX8leh1_c