Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

jonbischke.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 149 posts

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#31

Post by stonemetal »

geon wrote: post #20
izendejas wrote: post #14

I come from an officially poor background, but it wasn't until I started learning about my girlfriend's family back in her native, third-world country that I really got a sense for what third-world poverty is: - Constant verbal, physical, sometimes sexual abuse--the stuff that really traumatizes people into doing these same things across generations. This isn't the stuff you learn about in the news because, sadly, to…

I have a slightly related experience. My wife is from Sri Lanka, and while she haven't herself lived in poverty, I recognize the social structure keeping it in place. As a trivial example, in Sri Lankan culture, you don't say "thank you", "you're welcome" or give anycompliments. Instead, it is common to tell someone they look fat when you see them after a long time. Interestingly, the Internet is changing this. My wi…

As a trivial example, in Sri Lankan culture, you don't say "thank you", "you're welcome" or give anycompliments. Instead, it is common to tell someone they look fat when you see them after a long time.

I am not sure what you mean by your example. Telling someone they look fat when you haven't seen them for a while is a kin to saying you have done well for yourself and would be a complement. Mostly it just sounds like a difference in culture that changes when the culture around you changes.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#32

Post by mfringel »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #18
Joakal wrote: post #5

Many factors in poor staying poor. The High Cost of Poverty: Why the Poor Pay More: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05... Poor people spend 9% of income on lottery tickets; here's why: http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2010/05/31/poor-people-spend-9... Missing poverty's new reality: There's a lot less of it: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01...

Your first link is full of fail. You [a hypothetical poor person] don't have a car to get to a supermarket... 70% of the poor own a car, 25% own two cars. When you are poor, you don't have the luxury of throwing a load into the washing machine... 64% of the poor do have that luxury. http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf It only gets worse from that point on. The poor can't get free supermarket discount card…

_70% of the poor own a car, 25% own two cars._

Those particular numbers don't tell the whole story.

There are many ways to "not have a car", including "the car has broken down and they don't have the $300 to get it fixed, just like what happened last month because the car is fundamentally unreliable after owning it for 15 years (or getting a 10-year-old used one because they had a windfall one month, five years ago) but they can't amass enough cash to get another one, because they're living hand-to-mouth."

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#33

Post by jinushaun »

Blah blah white people. Blah blah blah black people. Same old story of white guilt by the NYT

I'm neither white nor black, but I was definitely poor. Grew up in the ghetto with gang violence. The problem isn't "access" or outreach programs for poor people—the problem is and always will be the parents. My parents stressed the importance of education and now I do well. My friends' parents didnt, and most of them barely graduated high school. Some even dropped out.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#34

Post by rglover »

I think the author makes a good point here, but unfortunately networking is only a mere fraction of this equation. More than anything, in order for impoverished students to better understand the situation, someone needs to tell them. Explain how our current social structure is unfair and doesn't yield any advantage. Is it grim? Of course. But without a heads up how the hell are these kids going to protect themselves? When you're that young, everything seems attainable (even if just a little bit). Unfortunately, as these kids transition out of high school into adulthood, they begin to realize that they may not have a better path. By instilling thoughts early on, explaining the necessity to focus on school work and the value that it provides your life (also explaining what's actually available, i.e. the networks discussed here) could prove to be a motivator for lots of kids. In order to be educated you need to be educated.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#35

Post by solson »

Having been poor (not 3rd world poor, poor by American standards) I found the most difficult thing is leaving the poverty stricken network. You don't feel like you've made it until you reject the entire mindset. Until then, you feel like you've sold out. My mother still makes me feel guilty and shames me every time I see her. Until you've had a parent who shames you for doing better than they did, you'll never understand the trap. I tell my upper middle class neighbors about this and they can't imagine parents who wouldn't want their children to do better than them. While I still talk to my parents I've dumped the rest of the network. I protect myself and my family from my old network. Their whole way of thinking is poison. With many of them you risk violence, drugs, abuse, sexual abuse, racism, etc. Even if you trust one or two of them you can never trust who they will bring you or your family in contact with. No amount of mentoring or example setting has helped, it just breeds resentment. Their world view traps them right where they are and their rejection, resentment, and hostility to a better way of life creates their poverty and isolation. Sending them to Harvard isn't going to make a damn bit of difference. Well, MAYBE if you sent one or two, but if you sent enough, they'd just ruin Harvard.

I came to the conclusion many years ago that in America poverty is a contagious mindset, nothing more. But I do understand that it is a difficult mindset to escape due to social issues. In all honesty, in most cases the middle class and rich have good reason not to network with the poor.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#36

Post by lallysingh »

jinushaun wrote: post #33

Blah blah white people. Blah blah blah black people. Same old story of white guilt by the NYT I'm neither white nor black, but I was definitely poor. Grew up in the ghetto with gang violence. The problem isn't "access" or outreach programs for poor people—the problem is and always will be the parents. My parents stressed the importance of education and now I do well. My friends' parents didnt, and most of them barely…

I agree with you across the board, but I have to point out that you used level-of-education as your comparative metric, which seems suboptimal in making your point. How were you vs your friends in other metrics of success?

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#37

Post by mkr-hn »

motters wrote: post #15

I think these things were identified several decades ago by sociologists. Namely that poverty isn't so much about money or level of education, as popularly supposed, but is primarily about "social exclusion", where there are few or no opportunities for someone of modest upbringing to break into other kinds of social circle. My grandparents generation had a very acute understanding of social class, and it played a cen…

Networking doesn't happen exclusively among people who overestimate their importance. Just about any kind of volunteering can lead you to something worthwhile. If one wants to get into an "elite" circle, they can get into a political campaign as a volunteer for a good start.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#38

Post by ekanes »

daimyoyo wrote: post #2

There are a few reasons that poor people remain poor. Math: The fact is that it's much more difficult to make $10,000 from nothing than it is to make $1M when you have $1B to use. Experience: When you're poor, the odds are very good that you don't know anyone who is successful(let alone "rich") so there isn't the chance to find out what it takes to be successful. Plus, when you have no experience you need to work you…

Actually you can make $10,000 from nothing weeding or mowing. Of course, you have to be willing to do hard things like get rejected door to door, but it's extremely possible.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#39

Post by poppysan »

jinushaun wrote: post #33

Blah blah white people. Blah blah blah black people. Same old story of white guilt by the NYT I'm neither white nor black, but I was definitely poor. Grew up in the ghetto with gang violence. The problem isn't "access" or outreach programs for poor people—the problem is and always will be the parents. My parents stressed the importance of education and now I do well. My friends' parents didnt, and most of them barely…

It is not about "white guilt" at all. This isn't even about racism as much as it is about classes, so I think the statement is off...

Growing up poor, I know firsthand that parents don't stress education enough, in my opinion. Most of those parents have no idea about how to change their situations or they would do it themselves. This is what the outreach programs and access to different ways of thinking, a view of how easy it is to get ahead, and access to opportunities that their parent may have never even knew about address.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#40

Post by wisty »

hessenwolf wrote: post #16
izendejas wrote: post #14

I come from an officially poor background, but it wasn't until I started learning about my girlfriend's family back in her native, third-world country that I really got a sense for what third-world poverty is: - Constant verbal, physical, sometimes sexual abuse--the stuff that really traumatizes people into doing these same things across generations. This isn't the stuff you learn about in the news because, sadly, to…

The graph is disjoint. I remember when I was in school and teachers were asking me what I wanted to do in college, and I had known not one single professional individual ever, other than teachers, with a teacher/pupil ratio of 33/1. How was I supposed to know? The problem with being poor is that everybody else you know is poor and also doesn't have an iota how to get out of it.

They know. At least, they have a rough idea. Of course, it wouldn't be much help to have your mother say "learn to read" if she can't help teach you. The other problem (which will be well-known by many hn-ers) is that trying to get out of is discouraged.

Would you make friends with a guy who wants to study in another zip code, or a guy who wants to stay in the 'hood? If you think you are going to stay in the 'hood, then you are best hanging out with a fellow drop-out.

That's the economic explanation for the jealousy and sometimes hostility that social climbers get.

Whether or not the economic explanation is correct, it's hard to argue that a black kid in a black school who acts white may get beat up for it.

Post reply on HN