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Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

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Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#171

Post by AWildC182 »

FitFox wrote: post #50
AWildC182 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edited my comment when I saw this. This is exceedingly dangerous. Ask any rower that's worked with people on C2 machines. Everyone will instinctively throw the damper to setting 10, then throw their back due to bad posture.

I'm a little confused by your harsh comments AWildC182. Obviously you're a fan of the C2, but isn't the point of this rower to open up a fitness experience for both new and pro users alike that's different from what's already been tried and tested in the market? I get the whole "don't fix what ain't broke" mindset, but the whole point of innovation is to broaden horizons and our experience with fitness. Plus, I saw t…

Did you create this account for this purpose?

I don't have any stake in C2, I just want to make clear that they are the standard that this will be measured against and that they are said standard for a reason. Anything advertised lesser should be viewed with suspicion, particularly for safety critical products.

All that said, there are opportunities to improve, but those opportunities mainly exist in the software space. Focusing on hardware solely to create a moat isn't innovation, it's making landfill fodder.

Finally, I have significant experience in this area, both as an athlete and a coach. Enough that I would unmask myself very quickly if I mentioned any details. I don't coach anymore and don't have any financial interest in that either. Teaching people to use these devices safely isn't an "instructional videos" and "warm up" ordeal. This will sound silly but people generally don't know what their body is doing without tight feedback loops and their perception breaks down under stress/over the duration of a workout. We frequently had people row in front of mirrors to get things to click (another business opportunity in the computer vision space). It's painfully obvious when you go anywhere that has mixed classically trained and self trained rowers who is who.

I only raise questions because the move-fast-break-things approach is dangerous when you're breaking people. I couldn't care less about the VCs getting fleeced by this.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#172

Post by AWildC182 »

Alex3917 wrote: post #46
AWildC182 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edited my comment when I saw this. This is exceedingly dangerous. Ask any rower that's worked with people on C2 machines. Everyone will instinctively throw the damper to setting 10, then throw their back due to bad posture.

> Everyone will instinctively throw the damper to setting 10, then throw their back due to bad posture. The people who do that normally only row for a few minutes at a time, and aren't really at any significant risk of injury. The only class of people who seem to consistently develop back problems from rowing machines are people who train on them for hours a day in high school and never lift weights. All the other ba…

The standard rowing machines (sit on sliding seat, feet stationary) can actually be pretty abusive to the spine, worse than scull or sweep. I've seen inexperienced people actually hurt themselves. It's mostly an issue of shock at the catch and finish. Dynamic machines such as those made by C2, Row perfect, etc are a bit better in this regard and might be a better fit for this market.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#173

Post by AWildC182 »

t-writescode wrote: post #169
AWildC182 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for context, standard is defined on two fronts. 1. Each machine computes effective Watts differently, so pulling your guts out might be 1kW on one machine, and 400W on another. Whichever one everyone has the most experience with wins here. 2. There are a bunch of different designs across about three different resistance modes available A. air B. water and C. hydraulic piston. Air is generally regarded as the bes…

> maybe 70dB Decidedly more than 70dB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yedBwDs7XH8 Water rowers peak at nearly 80. The Concept 2 clears 100dB edit: apparently some water rowers are louder than others. The last in their video hit approx 90dB

Depends on where you measure from but yea, 70 might be low. You can talk over two dozen heavies pulling 2ks on air rowers which definitely places it under 100dB.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#174

Post by AWildC182 »

akiselev wrote: post #163
AWildC182 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for context, standard is defined on two fronts. 1. Each machine computes effective Watts differently, so pulling your guts out might be 1kW on one machine, and 400W on another. Whichever one everyone has the most experience with wins here. 2. There are a bunch of different designs across about three different resistance modes available A. air B. water and C. hydraulic piston. Air is generally regarded as the bes…

> It should also be noted that experienced rowers can output a considerable amount of power. Enough to cause piston rowers to overheat and explode/vent. Just because your resident mechanical engineer can't break the prototype doesn't mean you shouldn't find someone who can hit National Team numbers and have them go at it for an hour straight. Another reason why Concept2 is the standard is they sell reasonably priced…

I don't think I've ever seen a model A in the wild but I've seen plenty of B's still working. I have a 20yo model C that I upgraded with a new monitor and handle and it still works like it was unboxed yesterday.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#175

Post by DrOctagon »

jrudolph wrote: post #140
kitd wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other challenge I is related to hardware. The reason why everyone is talking about the C2s is that pretty much every other machine is crap. The forces pulling on these machines are substantive and concept managed to make a machine that held up over time, unlike the others. So I hope you guys made those things sturdy enough. Robustness isn't the only reason C2s are considered the best. Unlike all the cheap brands,…

Certainly more accurate than most other ergs (that's how we rowers call them). However, it's not perfect. Nothing is ever perfect when it comes to measuring real world biomechanics. I did competitive rowing in my youth + I've spent a couple years building rowing technology, sensors + telemetry, so I can maybe offer a few interesting insights about their issues. Don't get me wrong, C2 ergs are great craftsmanship, bui…

Thank you for all that detail! A tangential question: At elite levels how well does performance on an ergo translate to on water performance? I rowed reasonably successfully at a junior level and I was much faster in a boat than others that would kick my butt on an ergo. This was always explained away as better technique. I’d be interested to know at a level where everyone has great technique if ergo/boat performance is more consistent.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#176

Post by t-writescode »

AWildC182 wrote: post #173
t-writescode wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> maybe 70dB Decidedly more than 70dB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yedBwDs7XH8 Water rowers peak at nearly 80. The Concept 2 clears 100dB edit: apparently some water rowers are louder than others. The last in their video hit approx 90dB

Depends on where you measure from but yea, 70 might be low. You can talk over two dozen heavies pulling 2ks on air rowers which definitely places it under 100dB.

When you're looking for a rowing machine for your apartment, these numbers become much more important.

I ended up with a low-price water rower. I can watch TV while rowing and can still hear the TV at a mostly reasonable volume.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#177

Post by dang »

AWildC182 wrote: post #171
FitFox wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a little confused by your harsh comments AWildC182. Obviously you're a fan of the C2, but isn't the point of this rower to open up a fitness experience for both new and pro users alike that's different from what's already been tried and tested in the market? I get the whole "don't fix what ain't broke" mindset, but the whole point of innovation is to broaden horizons and our experience with fitness. Plus, I saw t…

Did you create this account for this purpose? I don't have any stake in C2, I just want to make clear that they are the standard that this will be measured against and that they are said standard for a reason. Anything advertised lesser should be viewed with suspicion, particularly for safety critical products. All that said, there are opportunities to improve, but those opportunities mainly exist in the software spa…

> Did you create this account for this purpose?

That breaks the HN guidelines, which ask you to (1) assume good faith, and (2) not to post insinuations of astroturfing or shilling but rather to email hn@ycombinator.com if you're worried about abuse. You can easily make your substantive points while sticking to these rules.

Most new users are legit and it's the wrong cultural tradeoff for this place to allow established users to harass them. I certainly appreciate your wish to protect the integrity of the threads but it needs to be done while remaining an open, welcoming community. That last thing we want is to incentivize legit new users to leave just as soon as they arrive here, and we put up with a lot of downside in order not to punish the innocent.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Edit: it's also pretty nasty to say that VCs are "getting fleeced by this" in a launch thread where you're personally interacting with the founder. It's clear that you're an expert on rowing—that's fabulous! It's fine that you have a safety critique to make about this product—you've repeated it half a dozen times now. But it's not in keeping with the spirit of this site to accuse someone of outright corruption.

If you had strong evidence of ill intent or something, it would maybe be different, but all you've got is a difference of opinion. Your opinion is an informed one, but not the only one, and please let's not do the internet slide-down where differences of opinion turn into accusations of malfeasance. That leads to the hell we're trying to avoid on this site. Users who are posting here owe the community better than that, no matter how well informed they are.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#180

Post by FullNameAndy »

afterwalk wrote: post #178

This looks cool but I'd be in the market for a software solution that gave me "games, races, and programs" with a Concept 2 + iPad. If anyone knows of such a product please let me know.

Check out Asensei for live coaching, or Kinomap for outdoor rows :)
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