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Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

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Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#161

Post by ghaff »

gregsadetsky wrote: post #70
AWildC182 wrote: post #13

Long time high level rower here. Why make a new rowing machine when Concept 2 is the calibration standard all athletes use and has a relatively open USB interface? For those not in the know, rowing machines all have different calibrations. C2 is the standard because they're very consistent across machines and are by far the best made allowing for many thousands of hours of use without failures. Most experienced rower…

Not only does the C2 has an USB interface, but recent models have Bluetooth as well...! (I'm a happy C2 owner) I found an example project some time ago of a web site using Chrome's Bluetooth JavaScript API to recreate a rowing monitor and filed it away in case I would ever get to that side project :-) In case someone's interested to collab: I would build a 3D world through which you row. I know apps/games like these…

I'm pretty good about going out to take a walk/hike pretty much any day when the weather is remotely tolerable. But exercise equipment really does bore me. My C2 is 15+ years old and I don't use it a lot. But I'd upgrade the performance monitor in a heartbeat if there were a way to use it in conjunction with an Apple TV for a non-subscription immersive experience. (Something in the Hydrow vein.)

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#162

Post by gregsadetsky »

ghaff wrote: post #161
gregsadetsky wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only does the C2 has an USB interface, but recent models have Bluetooth as well...! (I'm a happy C2 owner) I found an example project some time ago of a web site using Chrome's Bluetooth JavaScript API to recreate a rowing monitor and filed it away in case I would ever get to that side project :-) In case someone's interested to collab: I would build a 3D world through which you row. I know apps/games like these…

I'm pretty good about going out to take a walk/hike pretty much any day when the weather is remotely tolerable. But exercise equipment really does bore me. My C2 is 15+ years old and I don't use it a lot. But I'd upgrade the performance monitor in a heartbeat if there were a way to use it in conjunction with an Apple TV for a non-subscription immersive experience. (Something in the Hydrow vein.)

You'd still need the monitor (what Concept2 calls the "PM5") to send Bluetooth data to your Apple TV, but you could fold the arm so that the monitor wouldn't be in the way of your tv.

I totally agree with you, rowing while even just watching TV is a lot more enjoyable. Having anything interactive (games/immersive) would be really great.

Re: subscription, I agree that it'd be interesting to build something for free that everyone can use, and maybe try to sustain this with subscriptions for extra features (competitions, etc.)

Finally, maybe the trick to building this out rapidly is to start with a web version. You'd connect your C2 to your computer via bluetooth, and then you could stream your computer to the Apple TV. A native Apple TV app would be better though, but it's more work. A web/three.js prototype is faster to put together (for me, at least -- a Unity developer might want to do this natively)

Should I try to make a launch page and if I get 1000 emails, go off and do it hah? :-)

---

Actually, an iOS app that would run on iPads (the perfect-ish format for a C2 immersive monitor) is really interesting... Maybe iOS/AppleTV is the way to go after all...

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#163

Post by akiselev »

AWildC182 wrote: post #105
mawise wrote: post #26

> I feel like sometimes this pisses the hardcore rowers off but I’m not a rower, I’m a tech guy. I also think fitness is important and have been working out all of my adult life. Some other comments have mentioned the Concept 2 and how it's the standard. It sounds like you're actually targeting non-rowers who want a Peloton-like experience. (Sort of like how Peloton doesn't really target the cycling community). Is th…

Just for context, standard is defined on two fronts. 1. Each machine computes effective Watts differently, so pulling your guts out might be 1kW on one machine, and 400W on another. Whichever one everyone has the most experience with wins here. 2. There are a bunch of different designs across about three different resistance modes available A. air B. water and C. hydraulic piston. Air is generally regarded as the bes…

> It should also be noted that experienced rowers can output a considerable amount of power. Enough to cause piston rowers to overheat and explode/vent. Just because your resident mechanical engineer can't break the prototype doesn't mean you shouldn't find someone who can hit National Team numbers and have them go at it for an hour straight.

Another reason why Concept2 is the standard is they sell reasonably priced spare parts for all of their machines going back to the first one they released in 1981 [1]

[1] https://shop.concept2.com/55-model-a

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#164

Post by ggm »

I am a rower. Mainly doubles and quads. So, not sweep oar.

Most rowing machines in gyms are set too "hard" water resistance does not mimic the setting most people use.

There is a rotational aspect in two planes no rowing machine i use mimics: the rotation around the oar gate, an arc of about 120 degrees, as you move forward and backwards, and the throttle twist of feathering the oars.

These limit the utility of dry rowing to me.

I've rowed in a static tank and its more "real" because your push is against water (you basically circulate water in a tank) and you get both feathering, and rowlock plane rotations

(In real rowing, your arm sweeps out a circular arc of the radius from the rowlock to your hands)

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#165

Post by FullNameAndy »

ggm wrote: post #164

I am a rower. Mainly doubles and quads. So, not sweep oar. Most rowing machines in gyms are set too "hard" water resistance does not mimic the setting most people use. There is a rotational aspect in two planes no rowing machine i use mimics: the rotation around the oar gate, an arc of about 120 degrees, as you move forward and backwards, and the throttle twist of feathering the oars. These limit the utility of dry r…

You are 100% right, getting that on the water feel is very hard. For this reason and others, we put a fun and engaging experience + amazing workout > being as realistic as possible.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#166

Post by wmitty »

I made a (much less fancy) rowing machine program in 1984 (for the original Concept II).

It was written in 6502 assembly language for the Apple II.

It had a really nice display:

- 2 boats, with oars moving timed to your pulls - scrolling scenery - stroke power graphs - odometers that rolled over like mechanical odometers.

I had a piece of tinfoil taped to the wheel on the concept II. There was an aluminum box divided in two with a flashlight bulb on one side and a photocell on the other. When the tinfoil passed under the alumium box the photocell resistance would change, which would be available to the program via a wirewrapped expansion board (that also gave the Apple II 60hz interrupts - a native Apple II has no timer or interrupt controller). I later saw a Cateye magnetic bicyle wheel sensor and felt like such an idiot.

It also had an integrated breakout game that was controlled by the difference in power between the two rowers. Because of how one wrote games in that day (often directly using screen memory as data), if the ball ever escaped the brickout playfield it would start colliding with (and corrupting) other things on the screen, and if it ever left the screen, with random bits of executable code.

When you got a high score on a 20 min row, I had an army surplus air raid siren that would spin up. The idea was that after you completely killed youself on the erg, you would then have to run like crazy to avoid getting deafened by an air raid siren in a small room (thankfully this last part never worked well). A very high school idea.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#167

Post by FullNameAndy »

wmitty wrote: post #166

I made a (much less fancy) rowing machine program in 1984 (for the original Concept II). It was written in 6502 assembly language for the Apple II. It had a really nice display: - 2 boats, with oars moving timed to your pulls - scrolling scenery - stroke power graphs - odometers that rolled over like mechanical odometers. I had a piece of tinfoil taped to the wheel on the concept II. There was an aluminum box divided…

That is the most impressive thing I've heard all day. I wish the air raid siren worked haha.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#168

Post by ghaff »

gregsadetsky wrote: post #162
ghaff wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty good about going out to take a walk/hike pretty much any day when the weather is remotely tolerable. But exercise equipment really does bore me. My C2 is 15+ years old and I don't use it a lot. But I'd upgrade the performance monitor in a heartbeat if there were a way to use it in conjunction with an Apple TV for a non-subscription immersive experience. (Something in the Hydrow vein.)

You'd still need the monitor (what Concept2 calls the "PM5") to send Bluetooth data to your Apple TV, but you could fold the arm so that the monitor wouldn't be in the way of your tv. I totally agree with you, rowing while even just watching TV is a lot more enjoyable. Having anything interactive (games/immersive) would be really great. Re: subscription, I agree that it'd be interesting to build something for free th…

I have my C2 in a room with a big TV on the wall but, yeah, practically speaking something that interfaces with an iPad app probably makes more sense in general. Rigging up an iPad stand for a C2 would be pretty trivial--and may well already exist.

If I were seriously looking at something like this as a business, I'd probably want to do a non-subscription offering that let you row down the Charles and other such rivers in an immersive and somewhat randomized environment but tried to get people to pay for real P2P interactions--which a lot would.

Not an actual interest of mine to do but I think someone could retrofit a much better virtual experience on a C2 than currently exists that people would pay good money for.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#169

Post by t-writescode »

AWildC182 wrote: post #105
mawise wrote: post #26

> I feel like sometimes this pisses the hardcore rowers off but I’m not a rower, I’m a tech guy. I also think fitness is important and have been working out all of my adult life. Some other comments have mentioned the Concept 2 and how it's the standard. It sounds like you're actually targeting non-rowers who want a Peloton-like experience. (Sort of like how Peloton doesn't really target the cycling community). Is th…

Just for context, standard is defined on two fronts. 1. Each machine computes effective Watts differently, so pulling your guts out might be 1kW on one machine, and 400W on another. Whichever one everyone has the most experience with wins here. 2. There are a bunch of different designs across about three different resistance modes available A. air B. water and C. hydraulic piston. Air is generally regarded as the bes…

> maybe 70dB

Decidedly more than 70dB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yedBwDs7XH8

Water rowers peak at nearly 80.

The Concept 2 clears 100dB

edit: apparently some water rowers are louder than others. The last in their video hit approx 90dB

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#170

Post by mrDmrTmrJ »

FullNameAndy wrote: post #159
samkater wrote: post #158

We have a Water Rower. They have a Bluetooth module you can install to get data to other devices (phone, etc). The programs Aviron offers look cool, but I would never trade out a working rower for a new one just for the workout programs. Families like mine are probably part your target market, but I suspect our current rower will last 10+ years. If you could connect to existing rowing machines and have the programs d…

Water Rower is fantastic - really pretty. Thanks for the feedback. We completely understand :)

Yeah, if you can mount to a water rower I'd love to buy your device & subscription.
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