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Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

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Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#511

Post by claudiulodro »

tunesmith wrote: post #237
legerdemain wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plan was enacted over the weekend... Only you never saw it. Biden, his cabinet, and tons of both Dem and Republican senators and other officials were arrested. Proof of their vast crimes was shown. They were court martialed and found guilty. However, it was decided this was too much for the American people to accept. Overturning the election and showing the crimes of these politicians could lead to Civil War. So…

Was this just creative writing or are you saying that that line of thought is out there and some nutcases actually believe it?

It's a copypasta[1] that's been making the rounds on the internet. It's a tongue-in-cheek way of poking fun at Q supporters, not some real delusions the OP is having.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copypasta

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#512

Post by newacct583 »

wcunning wrote: post #225
tptacek wrote: post #134

Ken White has been talking about the potential for this suit for a couple weeks now. He spends a lot of time talking about what isn't defamation --- people use defamation suits and threats thereof to chill free speech, and he's a 1st Amendment guy --- but the Dominion cases are apparently examples of very serious defamation cases. The core of defamation is (1) a false statement of purported fact that (2) causes damag…

As to (3), Ken and others have also pointed out, Rudy or Sydney Powel being lawyers have a duty to know this sort of thing so there's a chance that they'll be found to have actual malice even without a finding that Rudy was knowingly lying.

To be clear: Lawyers are held to a higher standard of conduct for the purposes of performing their jobs as lawyers. Giuliani could be disbarred for this almost certainly, etc... Lawyers are very much not held to a lower standard of criminal proof. They sit as defendants in exactly the same way and for the same reasons that we all do.

I think what you're trying to say is that the argument about malice is easier because as an attorney of record on cases involving allegations against Dominion, he "should have been" in a better position to know the truth than a layperson repeating the same nonsense.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#513

Post by mmazing »

chrisco255 wrote: post #469

I think it's nuts for a modern democracy to allow for anything but open source software being used to count paper ballots with chain-of-custody records, voter ID validation, biometric markings, and redacted ballots being published on the web for all to view and count independently. Software systems can easily be hacked, and it isn't easy to inspect and tell. A vote is a one time, one sided transaction. It's not as ea…

It's terrible to see some of the disinformation that is out there regarding open source software. Time and time again open source is shown to be the way to go, and you still hear lies about how it's not safe.

I can already hear the politicians going on about how "being open source" lets "anyone put their own back door in! BE AFRAID!"

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#514

Post by andrewclunn »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #438
dragonwriter wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As far as I know he only said that in the Pennsylvania case They specifically either did not make or withdrew fraud allegations in many cases. It's true that the PA case is the only one where Giuliani was stupid enough to repeatedly invoke fraud in arguments despite it not being in the allegations or evidence in that case, thereby getting questioned by the judge on that point, and thus being forced to admit his arg…

> They specifically either did not make or withdrew fraud allegations in many cases. The general point being that they did make and did not withdraw fraud allegations in other cases. > A number of the election cases went to trial (6 out of 54 tracked on Wikipedia reached a final verdict after trial, and 1 is listed as trial ongoing, though that may be out of date) Which implies that the large majority of them didn't,…

I don't know how you were able to add a sane retort to the same echo chamber dribble that permeates this site without being banned or flagged, but well done.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#515

Post by JshWright »

yters wrote: post #506
JshWright wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not "Dominion's" process, it is the local board of election's process. All Dominion supplies are fancy printers and optical scanners. The verification process in Georgia involved physically counting all of the paper ballots. The Dominion machines were totally uninvolved in the hand-recount (and, unsurprisingly, the hand-recount found that the original machine tally was extremely accurate) Again, I think it's pr…

Perhaps what you say is correct, but I have no way to verify the vote records myself. All I can do is trust the vote counters, and at this point that is the very matter under dispute. Someone in the know really should do an in depth write-up of why it is we can trust this election result. As it is the third Peter Navarro report appears very suspicious and it is hard to believe there is absolutely no reason to doubt t…

This is very "conspiracy theory" type thinking you're engaging in... There is no evidence supporting any of the claims of fraud, any evidence that doesn't support your position is automatically dismissed as untrustworthy.

Your claim seems to be that the Georgia Secretary of State (a staunch Republican and Trump supporter) along with the governor managed to pull off a huge operation to secretly change the results of the election (which would have involved hundreds of people and require that none of them speak out). That's a really outlandish claim, and requires supporting evidence, of which you have none.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#516

Post by newacct583 »

briandear wrote: post #499
knowaveragejoe wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is the idea here that by putting assertions that were discredited and that failed in court cases heard by Republican and, in some cases, Trump-appointed judges in Airtable, they somehow gain credibility? Yes. This is airtable is used on a number of websites that claim to show Biden cheated. It's a form of gish galloping - look closer at any of these, there's a reason why no court seriously entertained them. But whe…

> why no court seriously entertained them The courts didn’t “entertain” them because of standing. Cases weren’t thrown out on merits. No court has actually heard evidence.

This is not true. There were 60+ cases involved here across five (I think) state jurisdictions and federal courts, and variants of this evidence was submitted and ruled on in quite a few.

It is also true that most of these were tossed for things like standing. But the idea that courts "refused to hear the evidence" is exactly the kind of fake news / Big Lie argumentation that spawned the cases to begin with.

Court cases contesting elections are routine and normal. We deal with them in every close election. These failed because they were bad cases, not because of any technical machination or deep conspiracy.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#517

Post by jpxw »

chrisco255 wrote: post #469

I think it's nuts for a modern democracy to allow for anything but open source software being used to count paper ballots with chain-of-custody records, voter ID validation, biometric markings, and redacted ballots being published on the web for all to view and count independently. Software systems can easily be hacked, and it isn't easy to inspect and tell. A vote is a one time, one sided transaction. It's not as ea…

Yes, it’s either that or just use paper ballots, hand counted.

When I learned that the US actually uses software in its elections, I was shocked. It’s unthinkable here in the UK.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#518

Post by newacct583 »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #488
jliptzin wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can’t possibly be the case that a President who never won the popular vote and never polled above 50% approval during his entire term lost an election in which almost every poll leading up to it predicted his loss.

I'd love to see these so called patriots champion installing Gore for a bonus term since he was actually shafted by a mismanaged election. Nobody went looney bin insane over that.

To be fair: plenty of people went a little bit insane in 2000. But the elected leaders of both parties behaved like the adults in the room and the democracy survived just fine. For two more decades, anyway. Honestly the jury is still out on where we go from here.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#519

Post by dragonwriter »

newacct583 wrote: post #516
briandear wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why no court seriously entertained them The courts didn’t “entertain” them because of standing. Cases weren’t thrown out on merits. No court has actually heard evidence.

This is not true. There were 60+ cases involved here across five (I think) state jurisdictions and federal courts, and variants of this evidence was submitted and ruled on in quite a few. It is also true that most of these were tossed for things like standing. But the idea that courts "refused to hear the evidence" is exactly the kind of fake news / Big Lie argumentation that spawned the cases to begin with. Court ca…

> It is also true that most of these were tossed for things like standing.

In the ones I’ve read that were tossed for standing or laches, most of them (possibly all, I don’t remember a specific counterexample) were also tossed for failure to state a claim, because while the plaintiffs did usually recite the textbook elements of a cause of action, they either failed to allege specific factual claims that would establish each of those elements, or the evidence that they proferred to support those specific fact claims was insufficient to make a prima facie case.

Such a dismissal, while “procedural” in a sense, is also a decision on the merits – it is literally exactly a finding that if the plaintiff proved everything the evidence they claim to have could support regarding the claims they made, and the other party just let it all pass without challenge or counterevidence or presenting their own case, then the plaintiff would still lose on the merits.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#520

Post by starik36 »

javagram wrote: post #492
starik36 wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation will be reversed for the next 2 years. Just watch.

Democrats have already introduced a new election integrity bill providing funds for secure voting. https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/1/te... - Look for “Subtitle F—Promoting Accuracy, Integrity, And Security Through Voter-Verified Permanent Paper Ballot” Biden got 7 million more votes than Trump in 2020. Democrats are perfectly happy to spend even more money to “prove” their wins are real (altho…

Regardless of who got how many votes, our system needs to have as much transparency as possible. And that starts with use of open source software & hardware for elections. Then with making sure that people that are allowed to vote do.
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