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Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

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Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#431

Post by lettergram »

rrook wrote: post #395
lettergram wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been audits showing inconsistencies in the dominion systems in Michigan. https://beta.documentcloud.org/documents/20423772-antrim-cou... In addition they have videos of dominion employees supposedly explaining how to flip votes. https://thespectator.info/2021/01/04/new-video-shows-dominio... If you watched the state senate hearings you can see these. Witnesses share their findings. As far as I’m aware Giul…

> Frankly, I’ve seen the evidence Guiliani has presented and I find it convincing Care to share?

Edited in, check again

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#432

Post by knowaveragejoe »

lettergram wrote: post #423
Pxtl wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A plethora of court cases disagree with you.

~None~ Many were not discussed on merits. See link: http://wiseenergy.org/Energy/Election/2020_Election_Cases.ht... Many are still active (~30) Edit: correction

Rightfully so, for the accusers own sake - going to jail for peddling this ridiculous election fraud conspiracy in court isn't in their interest.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#433

Post by Merman_Mike »

krick wrote: post #285
dukeofdoom wrote: post #240

Rudy has a YouTube channel, you can hear him make his allegations and judge if it amounts to defamation. Most of them seem to be carefully phrased. https://www.youtube.com/c/RudyWGiuliani/videos Of all the claims that stuck out to me is the suitcase video, since it time corresponds with a one sided spike of votes.

That's a lot of footage. Can you point to some more specific example of these "carefully phrased allegations" to check out, if I'm mildly curious, but not that interested to spend much time investigating?

The lawsuit filing (PDF) is very specific: https://hamiltonps.app.box.com/s/fnrmhzypvs5g6pdsj1dp1y8v1ga...

You can just sort of skim that. He made dozens of fact-specific allegations over the course of months (ie. not carefully phrased).

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#434

Post by wvenable »

xerxespoy wrote: post #373

Be great for threads like these if HN had both: 1) A block function so we could cut the massively-upvoted, one-sided comments and get to the impartial or contrary information buried underneath them. 2) A "unfade" button to see the massively-downvoted comments. I've generally found when threads take on this imbalanced and highly-polarised state, the stuff on the top isn't the cream.

I see no reason to provide additional support for threads with limited value to the HN community. If you want to discuss politics or general news there are plenty of sites for that.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#435

Post by rat87 »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #333
simonh wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the claims if significant vote fraud were thrown out by courts up and down the land, including the Supreme Court and yet still a huge mob of nutters stormed the Capitol. A mere court finding isn’t going to stop Dominion employees getting death threats. It needs to be clearly and forcefully demonstrated that knowingly and recklessly and maliciously lying to the public with the intention of causing harm to a compan…

The most significant cases were dismissed on procedural issues without reaching the merits. That doesn't necessarily mean they had merit, but arbitrarily many procedural dismissals don't show that one way or the other. I feel like this is the problem with the discourse right now. It's understandable why you're making that argument, because the media has been saying that for months now. Because in fact a large number…

The cases were without standing or merit, the one victory was over letting vote count observers stand a little closer to the ballots

The media reported it like that because it was accurate. There's talk of sanctioning some of the lawyers for bringing some of the more frivolous lawsuits

There is no good faith counterargument based in facts, it's either conspiratorial nonsense, humungous misunderstandings or lies

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#436

Post by antiterra »

lettergram wrote: post #390
tptacek wrote: post #134

Ken White has been talking about the potential for this suit for a couple weeks now. He spends a lot of time talking about what isn't defamation --- people use defamation suits and threats thereof to chill free speech, and he's a 1st Amendment guy --- but the Dominion cases are apparently examples of very serious defamation cases. The core of defamation is (1) a false statement of purported fact that (2) causes damag…

There have been audits showing inconsistencies in the dominion systems in Michigan. https://beta.documentcloud.org/documents/20423772-antrim-cou... In addition they have videos of dominion employees supposedly explaining how to flip votes. https://thespectator.info/2021/01/04/new-video-shows-dominio... If you watched the state senate hearings you can see these. Witnesses share their findings. As far as I’m aware Giul…

Antrim county was audited and no fraud was found. I don’t consider their expert to be particularly credible and their conclusions (with leaps of faith as to assumed motive) are not even borne out by the facts as they reported. An overly sensitive page size detection could produce the same discrepancies they claimed to find.

The ‘expert’ in the Antrim document also claimed over 100% of registered voters voted in various Michigan counties but was actually using Minnesota data. It was buffoonery of the absolute highest order and plainly visible. Why anyone would rely upon someone so incompetent for any other analysis is beyond me.

Oh, right, equally ludicrous is the misadministration by a Republican county clerk is cause for disenfranchising a vote by the opposing party.

For her part though, the county clerk called shenanigans:

‘Antrim County Clerk Sheryl Guy all pushed back on the report.

Guy, a Republican, said she was saddened by the efforts to discredit the equipment.

I did read the report and find that there are many misleading statements that are simply not accurate.”’

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#437

Post by rglover »

Merman_Mike wrote: post #428
rglover wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give him a call: https://twitter.com/rglover/status/1339311748726349824 Ralph was in charge at State Farm Arena when those videos were filmed. Edit: yes, I called him and we spoke back in December for about 30-45 minutes. I originally called about the barriers blocking observers during the recount and then asked about the suitcases as well.

Are you referencing the barriers that were filmed... from inside the room... by the dozens of national media crews and party observers? Those barriers?

Yes? They had metal fence barriers (like at a concert) up with chairs behind them for the observers. During the recount they had the observers 30-40 ft back which meant they weren't observing anything. They were just in the room.

I saw the obvious issue with this and called to ask why. His response was that "legally we're in compliance."

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#438

Post by AnthonyMouse »

dragonwriter wrote: post #408
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know he only said that in the Pennsylvania case, because they had quite a strong argument there that the rules changes made in Pennsylvania violated their state constitution, and then given limited time/resources they went with the argument there that was easier to prove. But that was one of the cases dismissed over procedure. The courts essentially said they should have complained about it before the ele…

> As far as I know he only said that in the Pennsylvania case They specifically either did not make or withdrew fraud allegations in many cases. It's true that the PA case is the only one where Giuliani was stupid enough to repeatedly invoke fraud in arguments despite it not being in the allegations or evidence in that case, thereby getting questioned by the judge on that point, and thus being forced to admit his arg…

> They specifically either did not make or withdrew fraud allegations in many cases.

The general point being that they did make and did not withdraw fraud allegations in other cases.

> A number of the election cases went to trial (6 out of 54 tracked on Wikipedia reached a final verdict after trial, and 1 is listed as trial ongoing, though that may be out of date)

Which implies that the large majority of them didn't, doesn't it? It's not as if they were all fungible.

> Well, procedure matters.

Sure it does. But it has the result that it has. Nobody ever decides the merit of the claims dismissed on procedure.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#439

Post by Pxtl »

lettergram wrote: post #423
Pxtl wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A plethora of court cases disagree with you.

~None~ Many were not discussed on merits. See link: http://wiseenergy.org/Energy/Election/2020_Election_Cases.ht... Many are still active (~30) Edit: correction

googles wiseenergy.

Oh look it's the successor to WindpowerFacts.info, run by a climate change denier. I'm so ready to trust his opinion on legal matters.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#440

Post by triceratops »

AnHonestComment wrote: post #301
triceratops wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is it - not the lawsuit itself, but the public perception of it - could come back to bite the other side. That's a valid concern when you're dealing with a good-faith actor. But if voting machines are open-source (which I heartily support), they'll move on to baselessly discrediting something else to shape public perception. The problem isn't the technology per se. The problem is we're not dealing with…

No, the problem is the technology as such: Voting is a system that needs to be simple, transparent, and auditable. The technical solutions are 0/3 and an example of “over engineering” leading to a poor quality solution. Our current voting system is well below international standards — and it’s because of the technology.

First off, like all the other comments have said already, the systems in question were auditable. They printed out a paper receipt and they verified those by a hand-count.

Second, considering who we're dealing with, it fundamentally doesn't matter. They aren't actually arguing for more secure elections, they're looking for any reason to throw out the results because they lost. If systems were up to "international standards" (I don't know what those are, can you be more specific?) they'll just say they're "liberal commie standards that you can't trust, and we need American standards" or some nonsense like that.

By all means have more secure elections. Just know that it won't do anything in a scenario where the loser claims any result other than their victory is "rigged".

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