Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#141

Post by giantg2 » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

a3n wrote: post #113

giantg2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only do they tend to select larger cities, but also warmer cities. You mostly hear about the homeless population in places like San Francisco, Oahu, Austin, etc. If you're homeless, you might as well go to a place where you're less likely to freeze to death. Although there are some homeless in places likes Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, etc. Not to mention some cities will give them money if they take a bus to another…

> Not only do they tend to select larger cities, but also warmer cities. As a trucker, my view is mostly from the interstate. The most homeless I see in my travels all over the country is I-5 in California, Oregon and Washington, and CA 99. It's pretty cold in Washington and Oregon right now. Even California at night. Tents, tarps, sleeping bags, on both sides of the freeway fence, or inside interchange cloverleafs.…

That's certainly cold. I was just saying from a relative position. For example, it's relatively warmer than the midwest.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#142

Post by Cloudef » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

guerrilla wrote: post #125

Cloudef wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She walks with all that luggage. She sets up the luggage in queue, and takes the last luggage, brings it to the front, and repeats it until she gets to the next town.

Wow, that's a trip. Is there somewhere I can read more about this? I'll google translate it if all you got is in Finnish but I can read Swedish too. Edit: Reverse image search tells me her name is Laukku-Leena. https://www.iltalehti.fi/kotimaa/a/b225828d-c1b1-40b5-b7b1-a...

Yes, googling laukku-leena will get you some news and forums where people discuss her whereabouts. Not sure if you can find any non finnish articles however.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#143

Post by giantg2 » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

zehaeva wrote: post #135

giantg2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only do they tend to select larger cities, but also warmer cities. You mostly hear about the homeless population in places like San Francisco, Oahu, Austin, etc. If you're homeless, you might as well go to a place where you're less likely to freeze to death. Although there are some homeless in places likes Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, etc. Not to mention some cities will give them money if they take a bus to another…

You do hear about it more in warmer cities, but the city with the largest homeless population is actually NYC by quite a large margin. https://www.usnews.com/news/cities/slideshows/cities-with-th...

I wonder if they have an aggregate comparison of warm vs cold cities. I'd still consider NYC on the warmer side (with the gulf stream on the coast) when comparing it to the midwest or even Albany. For example, even going from Pittsburgh to Connecticut can be an increase of 20 degrees due to the gulf stream even though you are going slightly north.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#144

Post by Delk » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

flagrant wrote: post #45

sharpneli wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this hateful nonsense? Every citizen is eligible for that support. Do you perhaps live here so you can say it's not true? Sure it's not always perfect, errors in bureaucracy happens sometimes but getting social security is the default. If you accept it you get a house.

Without evidence, he stated that all homeless people in Finland are homeless because they would "prefer to get drunk". I don't think it's incorrect to describe this as hateful, because it's very clearly informed by a bias against homeless people rather than any real evidence. This is the equivalent of jumping into a discussion to say that Black people are poor because they "keep buying cellphones". It's not a serious…

Cloudef's comment might make it seem like it's predominantly a voluntary decision by the homeless, and I disagree with that. AFAIK most homeless people in Finland do have a substance abuse problem, though.

Edit: What actually might make this more interesting is that this could be how things are regarding homelessness in Western Europe in general, more or less, not just in a single country. I mentioned this in another comment, but AFAIK living in the streets in Finland, and quite possibly in Northern and Western Europe in general, is rather strongly connected to mental health issues and substance abuse problems. That doesn't mean that the homeless should be vilified, as both of those are illnesses and largely not a voluntary choice, but it could be something that's different about homelessness in the U.S. and in Western/Northern Europe.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#145

Post by austincheney » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

jeffbee wrote: post #69

austincheney wrote: post #7

The city of Austin, TX could be a case study of what not to do. I was remotely employed to company with offices in Austin in 2014-2015 and it was awesome to visit and walk around down town. I always had a blast. I visited Austin in 2019 and there were homeless people EVERYWHERE. Every green space and nearly every street corner seemed to be littered with homeless people. The difference crystal clear. Something in the…

Austin story is simple: housing is overpriced, they are only slightly behind the same process as the SF Bay Area. In the time frame you mentioned Austin housing prices increased by 50%, which is ridiculous. There's not another mysterious cause of homelessness.

I think that must be an oversimplification. Fort Worth just to the north is growing at the same speed as Austin. My house has doubled in value in the last 11 years. Yet, Fort Worth is extremely anti-homeless in its city ordinances and we don't have a visible homeless problem. As Fort Worth is a giant city in a warm climate I am sure there is a homeless problem, but we residents don't have to see it.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#146

Post by jeffbee » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 6:05 PM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #145

jeffbee wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Austin story is simple: housing is overpriced, they are only slightly behind the same process as the SF Bay Area. In the time frame you mentioned Austin housing prices increased by 50%, which is ridiculous. There's not another mysterious cause of homelessness.

I think that must be an oversimplification. Fort Worth just to the north is growing at the same speed as Austin. My house has doubled in value in the last 11 years. Yet, Fort Worth is extremely anti-homeless in its city ordinances and we don't have a visible homeless problem. As Fort Worth is a giant city in a warm climate I am sure there is a homeless problem, but we residents don't have to see it.

Even so, housing costs in Ft. Worth are still much cheaper than in Austin, and the difference is widening. In the last 30 years housing in Austin has gone from 30% cheaper than Ft. Worth to 30% more expensive. It's easy to see why: Ft. Worth enjoys liberal-marketarian zoning policies and Austin suffers increasingly from left-NIMBY potectionism, meanwhile population pressure is actually higher in Austin due to job growth. That is why the Austin situation seems to me to be quite similar to the SF Bay Area.

Not discounting that Ft. Worth local policies may do a better job of hiding homelessness, only I don't think it is the root cause.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#147

Post by Youden » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 6:09 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #19

Related news: European Court of Human Rights just made important ruling that decriminalizes begging. Making it criminal to be poor is against human rights. ----- ECHR 021 (2021) 19.01.2021 (Judgment Lacatus v. Switzerland) The penalty imposed on the applicant for begging in public breached the Convention In today’s Chamber judgment 1 in the case of Lăcătuşv. Switzerland (application no. 14065/15) the European Court o…

I agree with the sentiment but based on the text of the ruling, I can't agree with the ruling itself [0]. Missing from your summary is:

- "The applicant, Violeta-Sibianca Lăcătuş, is a Romanian national who was born in 1992 and lives in Bistrita-Nasaud (Romania)."

- "In 2011 Ms Lăcătuş, who was unable to find work, began asking for charity in Geneva."

Why was somebody who "lives in" Romania begging in Geneva? Would she not have received social benefits in Romania? This looks like a perverse kind of tourism. Refugees and asylum seekers I can understand but Romania isn't a warzone or dictatorship, it's an EU member state.

And I think "decriminalizes begging" is a bit hyperbolic. The court did set some precedent but they were also clear that a critical factor in the ruling was that this woman was in a situation where she genuinely needed to beg in order to survive.

[0]: https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/app/conversion/pdf/?library=ECHR&...

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#148

Post by itake » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 6:09 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #91

itake wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve lived in LA, SF, and Boulder. Most of the homeless in these cities are not interested in being apart of society. They are perfectly happy with their lifestyle of mental health and drug addictions. Yes, there is a minority of homeless struggling to rejoin society, but the (pardon verbiage) worst people have no interest or empathy for society.

You're already coming across as very judgmental of these people. Have you actually talked to them? Do you know why they prefer their lifestyle? I mean you just implied that mental health is a lifestyle or addiction (??? maybe check your phrasing), and that drug addiction is a lifestyle choice instead of e.g. a coping mechanism because society failed them.

> Have you actually talked to them?

yes. Everyone has their own story. Checkout these interviews on Youtube:

LA - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6ZFzEW7_Q4 Seattle - https://youtu.be/bpAi70WWBlw?t=877

The homeless I talked with in Boulder romanticize camping forever along the creeks and being free from society, while trying to leach off of public services.

> Do you know why they prefer their lifestyle?

Drug addiction, mental health, and in some cases lack of family support.

> that drug addiction is a lifestyle choice

Drug addiction is a choice. Based on my very limited personal experiences, you gotta commit to making a change (see above videos). Many addicts just aren't ready to leave their vices for a better life. No amount of rehab will help someone if they aren't ready to commit to a change.

> society failed them.

Sorry if this sounds conservative, but trying to blame other people for your problems doesn't really get you any where. Society throws problems at everyone, some more than others. Laying around complaining or rejecting it doesn't improve anyone's situation.

People need to apply critical thinking skills and tackle their own issues (hence the need for an addict needing to commit to the idea of solving the problem of their addiction).

Ex-homeless/addicts getting together to correct "society failed" them problems via AA meetings is an excellent example of people that apply critical thinking skills and try to help.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#149

Post by dd_roger » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 6:44 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #118

dd_roger wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Related news: European Court of Human Rights just made important ruling that decriminalizes begging. Making it criminal to be poor is against human rights. Lol, you're taking a very ungenuine shortcut. Legal residents who also happen to be poor do not resort to begging because they receive help through the appropriate welfare programs. The the overwhelming large majority of people affected by this law are foreigner…

I sure that we both can agree that - illegitimacy or being foreigners does not remove human rights and human dignity. - feelings or sympathy or lack of them should not be taken account when administering justice or government policy. ps. Roma from Romania are not illegitimate. They are free to move across Europe. Free travel is also for the poor. Swiss voters reject bid to curb EU freedom of movement https://www.dw.c…

Romania isn't in Schengen so yes, they are illegitimate. But you're the only one talking about Roma here.

What should be taken into account for policy making is the interest of the country's citizens (and non-national legal residents to a lesser extent), not "begging tourists".

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#150

Post by asdff » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

Finland has 5.5M people and about 5 thousand homeless. Los Angeles county has 10.5M people and estimates are nearing 100,000 homeless. The situation is an order of magnitude different in Los Angeles, even by West Coast standards, and what works in Findland is unlikely to scale anywhere else, much less a place like the U.S. which has the bare minimum of a social safety net compared to the rest of the developed world.