Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#71

Post by Cthulhu_ » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

usr1106 wrote: post #63

nabla9 wrote: post #19

Related news: European Court of Human Rights just made important ruling that decriminalizes begging. Making it criminal to be poor is against human rights. ----- ECHR 021 (2021) 19.01.2021 (Judgment Lacatus v. Switzerland) The penalty imposed on the applicant for begging in public breached the Convention In today’s Chamber judgment 1 in the case of Lăcătuşv. Switzerland (application no. 14065/15) the European Court o…

That sounds like a reasonable decision. After all advertisement is nothing but begging to increase the profit of the advertiser. If I really need to buy something, I'm sure I can do so without advertisement. Advertisement, be it some marketing phone call, someone offering me whatever subscription on the corridor of the mall, and ads making my phone browsing experience super slow are a much bigger nuisance to me than…

A bit of a jump. I mean I get that you dislike advertising and I agree with you, but equating it to begging is reaching and diluting the discussion with your issue is adding confusion.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#72

Post by fsloth » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

flagrant wrote: post #45

sharpneli wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this hateful nonsense? Every citizen is eligible for that support. Do you perhaps live here so you can say it's not true? Sure it's not always perfect, errors in bureaucracy happens sometimes but getting social security is the default. If you accept it you get a house.

Without evidence, he stated that all homeless people in Finland are homeless because they would "prefer to get drunk". I don't think it's incorrect to describe this as hateful, because it's very clearly informed by a bias against homeless people rather than any real evidence. This is the equivalent of jumping into a discussion to say that Black people are poor because they "keep buying cellphones". It's not a serious…

Uh, no. I'm finnish. You go to social security and they fix you with an apartment. It is mostly due to the decisions of the homeless that they remain homeless.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#73

Post by hn_throwaway_99 » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #7

The city of Austin, TX could be a case study of what not to do. I was remotely employed to company with offices in Austin in 2014-2015 and it was awesome to visit and walk around down town. I always had a blast. I visited Austin in 2019 and there were homeless people EVERYWHERE. Every green space and nearly every street corner seemed to be littered with homeless people. The difference crystal clear. Something in the…

> Something in the handling of the homeless problem had failed in that city.

Austin city council removed a ban on camping in public in 2019. The pitch was that it "decriminalized homelessness".

Austin is still a liberal city, but revocation of the ban is now widely reviled given the tents and trash that have grown everywhere, without doing anything really to help homeless people. There is an initiative on the ballot for an election in May to reinstate the camping ban, and I'd take a 100-to-1 bet it will pass.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#74

Post by bzb6 » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

iSnow wrote: post #70

Cloudef wrote: post #6

Note that the "homeless" people in Finland are mainly people who refuse to accept support from the social welfare, this is because they prefer to get drunk instead of spending it on food and rent. The social welfare eventually suggests a different system for such people: pay the rent for them and give a special card that can be used for anything except alcohol and cigarette. If the people keep refusing that other opt…

>because they prefer to get drunk instead of spending it on food and rent. After a certain point, alcoholism is no longer a choice or preference, it's a debilitating disease. And before that point, it's frequently self-medication for untreated mental problems. Consider this: alcohol is the only mood-elevating drug sold freely, of course a percentage people will jump on it if they have massive problems. Not going to c…

They already have all of that. The next step is forcing them, which is unpalatable as you can imagine.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#75

Post by flagrant » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

sharpneli wrote: post #64

flagrant wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without evidence, he stated that all homeless people in Finland are homeless because they would "prefer to get drunk". I don't think it's incorrect to describe this as hateful, because it's very clearly informed by a bias against homeless people rather than any real evidence. This is the equivalent of jumping into a discussion to say that Black people are poor because they "keep buying cellphones". It's not a serious…

He said mainly. No all. You do understand that everyone gets social security as money if they need. The problems happen if they are unable to use that money to pay the rent. And yes indeed the main reason is some sort of intoxicant use, as they rather get more stuff than use the money for rent. Legal debts are also not a reason not to pay rent, as one is protected from repaying them when it's about essentials. So tha…

I'll be happy to retract the "hateful" comment if anyone can provide evidence that "people are mainly homeless in Finland because they would prefer to get drunk".

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#76

Post by throwaway0a5e » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #7

The city of Austin, TX could be a case study of what not to do. I was remotely employed to company with offices in Austin in 2014-2015 and it was awesome to visit and walk around down town. I always had a blast. I visited Austin in 2019 and there were homeless people EVERYWHERE. Every green space and nearly every street corner seemed to be littered with homeless people. The difference crystal clear. Something in the…

>Something in the handling of the homeless problem had failed in that city

I'd wager that they made the problem worse by importing rich people with a high tolerance for bad public policy and homelessness.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#77

Post by flagrant » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

bzb6 wrote: post #67

flagrant wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without evidence, he stated that all homeless people in Finland are homeless because they would "prefer to get drunk". I don't think it's incorrect to describe this as hateful, because it's very clearly informed by a bias against homeless people rather than any real evidence. This is the equivalent of jumping into a discussion to say that Black people are poor because they "keep buying cellphones". It's not a serious…

Are you American?

No.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#78

Post by cheph » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 2:56 PM UTC

Eridrus wrote: post #27

toomuchtodo wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evidence, from Utah (Salt Lake City also attempted and was somewhat successful with Housing First) to Finland says otherwise. Housing the homeless is cheaper and gets them stability to address the core issues (addiction, job placement, etc) with social services (which is incredibly difficult when folks are transient and sleeping rough). With that said: > Meanwhile, illegal immigration creates a homeless populatio…

Not to say the general approach is bad, but I think the cost side is overplayed. It depends a lot on what the cost/structure of your existing response is, and critically, whether you can actually realize any savings after the shift. Both because it is hard to reduce staffing/infrastructure, but also because many costs are not actually born directly by the city (eg medical costs are born by the hospitals).

> Not to say the general approach is bad, but I think the cost side is overplayed.

Not sure why I, as an immigrant to Europe myself, should pay cover the cost for illegal aliens while I cannot provide properly for my own relatives in my home country. It is unconscionable.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#79

Post by dd_roger » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 2:56 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #19

Related news: European Court of Human Rights just made important ruling that decriminalizes begging. Making it criminal to be poor is against human rights. ----- ECHR 021 (2021) 19.01.2021 (Judgment Lacatus v. Switzerland) The penalty imposed on the applicant for begging in public breached the Convention In today’s Chamber judgment 1 in the case of Lăcătuşv. Switzerland (application no. 14065/15) the European Court o…

> Related news: European Court of Human Rights just made important ruling that decriminalizes begging. Making it criminal to be poor is against human rights.

Lol, you're taking a very ungenuine shortcut. Legal residents who also happen to be poor do not resort to begging because they receive help through the appropriate welfare programs. The the overwhelming large majority of people affected by this law are foreigners who take advantage of Schengen to come to a rich country only for begging. These people have no legitimity of being here and earn no sympathy from me.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#80

Post by js8 » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

Cloudef wrote: post #55

agumonkey wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's unrelated, people like that are not ready to function 'normally', they need a shelter, asylum, hospital. It's an emotional problem more than material.

If they don't cause harm to other people, you can't really force them or tell them they are living their life wrong.

You can show them though, get them to talk to other people who have been in a similar situation, have been helped out of it, and have now a better life.