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Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

economist.com

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Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#111

Post by rendall »

ido wrote: post #82
empiricus wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

small addition which should clarify some more the issue: romani == gypsy

At least in the German speaking countries the word Gypsy ("Zigeuner" in German) is considered a racial slur similarly (if not quite as strongly) ill-considered in usage as N*gger is in English. There aren't a lot of Romani in the US, which I think is why Americans aren't aware this is a word you should avoid (but I'm pretty sure it is also considered a slur in English in Britain and Ireland).

It's pretty common knowledge to be a slur in the US too

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#112

Post by [deleted] »

sharpneli wrote: post #110
flagrant wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll be happy to retract the "hateful" comment if anyone can provide evidence that "people are mainly homeless in Finland because they would prefer to get drunk".

We use two terms for homeless here. Strictly speaking if we just use the term homeless you're correct. 79% of them are not like that [ARA Asunnottomat 2019]. They're people like students bunking in a friends bed without a valid address or other short term issues, like the social security making a mistake, but they're eventually rectified. This means the homelessness has lasted for less than a year. 21% are long term…

[deleted]

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#113

Post by a3n »

giantg2 wrote: post #21
burntoutfire wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Something in the handling of the homeless problem had failed in that city. Or, the homeless are recent migrants from other areas? At least where i live, the homeless all congregate in biggest wealthiest cities, because it's easier to beg, their presence blends in more and also local communities are more atomized so they don't fight off the homeless as hard as in smaller places. I've heard a story of one homeless gu…

Not only do they tend to select larger cities, but also warmer cities. You mostly hear about the homeless population in places like San Francisco, Oahu, Austin, etc. If you're homeless, you might as well go to a place where you're less likely to freeze to death. Although there are some homeless in places likes Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, etc. Not to mention some cities will give them money if they take a bus to another…

> Not only do they tend to select larger cities, but also warmer cities.

As a trucker, my view is mostly from the interstate.

The most homeless I see in my travels all over the country is I-5 in California, Oregon and Washington, and CA 99.

It's pretty cold in Washington and Oregon right now. Even California at night.

Tents, tarps, sleeping bags, on both sides of the freeway fence, or inside interchange cloverleafs.

Not judging their condition or their person, I don't know them. It looks pretty rough.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#114

Post by mewpmewp2 »

Cloudef wrote: post #26
Delk wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there's truth to that, it's worth noting that most of those homeless people are suffering from ill mental health and/or substance dependence. You make it sound like they just shrugged and decided that that's the life they want, but I don't think that's how people end up homeless. There are decisions involved, but they're probably not quite as voluntary as that.

Those people are given help, but if they refuse that, there's nothing you can really do. People are only forced if they start being dangerous to other people.

You could try to prevent people from reaching such state in the first place, for future occurrences.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#115

Post by usr1106 »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #71
usr1106 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a reasonable decision. After all advertisement is nothing but begging to increase the profit of the advertiser. If I really need to buy something, I'm sure I can do so without advertisement. Advertisement, be it some marketing phone call, someone offering me whatever subscription on the corridor of the mall, and ads making my phone browsing experience super slow are a much bigger nuisance to me than…

A bit of a jump. I mean I get that you dislike advertising and I agree with you, but equating it to begging is reaching and diluting the discussion with your issue is adding confusion.

Where is the difference? Businesses charge more than what their costs are, the rest is their profit. Beggars request more than what they deliver, everything is their profit. Still beggars seem to succeed worse. I have no problem with that, but there is no reason to "declare" their business model illegal.

If you buy an Apple product you bought a status symbol. If you give to a beggar you bought a warm feeling, that it did not harm you and helped them.

Disclaimer: I have never bought an Apple product. I hardly ever give money to beggars. But I do give them food if I happen to carry some. Which could be my supremacy that I don't want the to spend my money on alcohol.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#116

Post by eulenteufel »

usr1106 wrote: post #95

Well, there are fewer homeless in Finnish cities than in many other European big cities. Note that there are only 5 cities in Finland that are big enough for homeless people. I don't think homeless people live in small towns anywhere in Europe. On the other hand a Finnish newspaper wrote just yesterday[1] that the amount of street children (teenagers mostly) is increasing all the time and nobody really cares. The phe…

I come from a German town with ~25.000 People, far away from any major city and there definitely are homeless people. It's not a lot in comparison to big cities like Berlin, but they do exist.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#117

Post by u678u »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #94
u678u wrote: post #18

In areas of the USA with the population density of Finland there isn't much (any?) homelessness either.

And your point is...? I mean I guess culling the population to make the price of housing drop is one solution, but it's a bit strong don't you think?

The point is its easy to fix homelessness when land is cheap and building materials are cheap. It doesn't really help our problems in big American cities.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#118

Post by nabla9 »

dd_roger wrote: post #79
nabla9 wrote: post #19

Related news: European Court of Human Rights just made important ruling that decriminalizes begging. Making it criminal to be poor is against human rights. ----- ECHR 021 (2021) 19.01.2021 (Judgment Lacatus v. Switzerland) The penalty imposed on the applicant for begging in public breached the Convention In today’s Chamber judgment 1 in the case of Lăcătuşv. Switzerland (application no. 14065/15) the European Court o…

> Related news: European Court of Human Rights just made important ruling that decriminalizes begging. Making it criminal to be poor is against human rights. Lol, you're taking a very ungenuine shortcut. Legal residents who also happen to be poor do not resort to begging because they receive help through the appropriate welfare programs. The the overwhelming large majority of people affected by this law are foreigner…

I sure that we both can agree that

- illegitimacy or being foreigners does not remove human rights and human dignity.

- feelings or sympathy or lack of them should not be taken account when administering justice or government policy.

ps. Roma from Romania are not illegitimate. They are free to move across Europe. Free travel is also for the poor. Swiss voters reject bid to curb EU freedom of movement https://www.dw.com/en/swiss-voters-reject-bid-to-curb-eu-fre...

>Swiss voters on Sunday overwhelmingly rejected a proposal to limit the free movement of people and immigration from the European Union.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#119

Post by jedimastert »

giantg2 wrote: post #57
jedimastert wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but it's almost impossible to get out of homelessness without it. It's really hard to do anything more with your day if you have to spend most of it making sure you have enough calories and a "safe" place to sleep. This doesn't fix everything, but there is a not-as-small-as-you-might-think subset of people for whom the only reason they continue to be homeless is they can't do anything other than figure out what t…

"for whom the only reason they continue to be homeless is they can't do anything other than figure out what they're gonna eat that day" I'm not sure I believe this. Why did they become homeless in first place? With most there is an underlying issue. It might be that they are a felon, addict, or other medical issue. It's not that hard to ask for a job while also asking for money or food. Especially if you're already g…

> Why did they become homeless in first place?

I think you are vastly underestimating how easy it is to go from poor to homeless. There was a ~3 year period of my life where all it would have taken is one bad month. Just one. And it wasn't for lack of trying, or because of laziness or mental illness. Just real bad luck and starting out in a not-great place within a not-great system.

Homelessness is a hole that is easy to fall into and damn hard to crawl out of, and not to be insensitive but the assumptions you're making are part of the problem.

When you assume that homelessness is fundamentally caused by a fault in the person, that person is basically dammed to stay homeless. The things you say here are the same reasons people give to not hire a homeless person. "They must either be crazy or lazy, neither of which is an employee I want".

That's not to mention the fact that there are a surprising number of homeless people that do have jobs, but just don't make enough money to save up to get anything better (which, yes, is a failing of the system). Most people don't realize this if they haven't lived it, but being poor is very expensive.

> He basically gave up on the system and finds it easier to just let family support him.

Some people don't have a family that could support another person.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#120

Post by collyw »

ido wrote: post #82
empiricus wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

small addition which should clarify some more the issue: romani == gypsy

At least in the German speaking countries the word Gypsy ("Zigeuner" in German) is considered a racial slur similarly (if not quite as strongly) ill-considered in usage as N*gger is in English. There aren't a lot of Romani in the US, which I think is why Americans aren't aware this is a word you should avoid (but I'm pretty sure it is also considered a slur in English in Britain and Ireland).

I don't think anyone is particularly bothered by their race, rather their behaviour. (In the UK there are both Irish gypsies and Romani gypsies, both have a bad reputation).
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