Why Working from Home Will Stick [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Working from Home Will Stick [pdf]

#451

Post by joelbluminator » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 1:56 PM UTC

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #391

joelbluminator wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are work friends actual friends? Seems to me in the vast majority of cases once a person switches jobs he switches his work friends as well...which happens about once in 3-5 years...

This is my experience as well. Most "friends" only stay friends for as long as they share activities together, and if there is too long of an absence in activities, it will be harder to plan activities or reconnect later down the line. They'll usually drop down to acquaintance level and stay there. Goes for work, hobbies, and more. Friends who stick around for who you are, rather than what you do together, are except…

I'm pretty sure I could have become actual friends with many colleagues if we weren't colleagues, but I see that meeting them after hours always gravitates to talking about work. Some people are fine with that, to me it's depressing to have to think about work on my weekend.

Re: Why Working from Home Will Stick [pdf]

#452

Post by benhurmarcel » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 1:56 PM UTC

ck425 wrote: post #437

jasonkester wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, man. Young You sounds like a very different person to Young Me. If my first employer had told young 20-something Me "I'm afraid we're not going to let you come in and sit in this felt cube every day after all. Instead we're going to ask that you fly to Thailand and work from a laptop on the beach from here on out.", I would not have reacted by explaining how work is a social thing that needs to happen i…

The office you describe sounds like a crap office. Comparing a crap office to remote (where it's largely as good or as bad as your decide) isn't really fair. I've previously always worked in lovely offices, with lots of light and quiet spaces, at places where adhoc working from home was common and acceptable (even if we were still office first). Compared to that remote working sucks for me, particularly for the reaso…

> Comparing a crap office to remote […] isn't really fair.

It's fair for the majority of people who can only get a crap office.

Re: Why Working from Home Will Stick [pdf]

#453

Post by mobb_solo » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 2:00 PM UTC

I for one, am at LEAST 50% less effective with people if I am not face-to-face with them.

[ONE reason why ] I'm convinced that this whole pandemic thang is a conspiracy against ME, personally.

I do not make friends online --never mind participate in social media-- due to the simple Fact that I just don't seem to translate over the wire. Only my closest friends seen to avoid being offended by my text messages..

Re: Why Working from Home Will Stick [pdf]

#454

Post by odiroot » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 2:00 PM UTC

Apfel wrote: post #381

odiroot wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 4. For a huge swath of Americans at least, work is an escape from the drudgery of the home. This is big. If I had a fancy apartment in a good quality building, I wouldn't mind. But the place I currently reside in, is really frustrating to spend your whole day. I can easily hear my neighbours talking, their pets, screeching children or construction work many floors above. The ceilings are also quite low, which ampli…

Obviously this isn't a permanent solution, but noise cancelling headphones have gotten really good recently. Sony xm1000 models and Bose could potentially go some way towards helping you deal with this.

I have good noise-cancelling headphones. They do very little for human voice and children shrieks.

My in-ear stage Shures with passive isolation work much better but spending whole day in headphones is neither pleasant nor healthy.

Re: Why Working from Home Will Stick [pdf]

#455

Post by joelbluminator » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 2:02 PM UTC

toomanybeersies wrote: post #282

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's something more insidious to your analogy though. A lot of those banking jobs don't exist anymore. Any job that can be WFH will be easy to outsource. You aren't need in office so why do we even need you in this time zone? Outsource it cheap. If it really is manageable from a 30 min standup and Jira then why even bother with expensive devs? Before you had a small competitive market in a central location. Now yo…

> why even bother with expensive devs? Because you get what you pay for. I am yet to hear of any cases where in the long run outsourcing development to a low-wage country actually saved money. Competent engineers generally follow the money and emigrate. Why earn $10k a year in India when you could earn $100k in the USA?

Only it's more like 150K in the expensive parts of the U.S, which is 2x the compensation in Europe. So you're saying an average German team can't handle the complexity of an ad targeting or deliveries startup?

Re: Why Working from Home Will Stick [pdf]

#456

Post by polote » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 2:10 PM UTC

jasonkester wrote: post #373

anonytrary wrote: post #292

This is ironic coming from Stanford, who is currently fucking up every single aspect of their handling of covid, as many Stanford students will attest to. Colleges are basically scammers at this point. The whole benefit of going to college is being able to meet like-minded smart, young people like yourself. Remote college isn't a thing and never will be. College is about people, as much as it is about learning. The u…

I don't know, man. Young You sounds like a very different person to Young Me. If my first employer had told young 20-something Me "I'm afraid we're not going to let you come in and sit in this felt cube every day after all. Instead we're going to ask that you fly to Thailand and work from a laptop on the beach from here on out.", I would not have reacted by explaining how work is a social thing that needs to happen i…

You didn't get what OP is saying. The point is not that nobody wants remote work. The point is that today the office is an important part of our social life, and as long as we don't find a replacement people will be willing to go back to the office. Not all the people would want that, not going every day at the office either. But having an office so that you can socialize is today required by a lot of people to be happy in their life

Re: Why Working from Home Will Stick [pdf]

#457

Post by matwood » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 2:11 PM UTC

throwaway3699 wrote: post #426

ameister14 wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you put it, it sounds like you're working with the best possible team you can - why would you be sacrificing your career to stay? Wouldn't it be the other way around? Sacrificing your career for social contact?

Social contact is essential to the development of one's career. And to be honest, this might be a personal thing, but if a job isn't worth being in person for, then it's not worth pursuing at all. I know I'd much rather be with a few friends hacking projects together for pennies on the dollar than making 200k remote.

> Social contact is essential to the development of one's career.

Agreed, except the biggest movers for my career have been social contacts made outside of work.

People incorrectly keep thinking about remote work only in a pandemic sense. Remote work doesn't mean zero social contact, it means more control over the social contact you have.

Re: Why Working from Home Will Stick [pdf]

#458

Post by matwood » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 2:14 PM UTC

apahwa wrote: post #302

anonytrary wrote: post #292

This is ironic coming from Stanford, who is currently fucking up every single aspect of their handling of covid, as many Stanford students will attest to. Colleges are basically scammers at this point. The whole benefit of going to college is being able to meet like-minded smart, young people like yourself. Remote college isn't a thing and never will be. College is about people, as much as it is about learning. The u…

this is spoken like it is true for everyone, which is not accurate. I would have loved to be fully remote in my early 20s, free to travel and not focus purely on work. sure it was great for my career, but work isn't living. sure, a ton of people hate working from home. some personalities and roles require in-person interaction. most people never considered wfh when choosing their apartment or house and don't have goo…

> yes, people need social interaction, but that doesn't have to come from coworkers

Yeah, I think people keep conflating remote work with pandemic remote work. Pandemic remote work sucks. I miss going to coffee shops, 10am Jiu-Jitsu, and going to matinees with friends. I'm ready to get back to pre-pandemic remote work.

Re: Why Working from Home Will Stick [pdf]

#459

Post by benhurmarcel » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

wisty wrote: post #118

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #29

I've been 100% remote and run remote teams since 2014 and I promise that it won't stick for the broader society. Here's why: 1. Socializing is the primary activity that happens at work for the vast majority of workers. The gal or guy coming by your desk to "check in" or "see how your weekend was" etc... is literally where they find their social outlets and personal connections. 2. Managers like to be able to watch th…

I think it's worth looking into "theory of the firm" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_firm Why should employees even exist? Shouldn't firms just sack everyone, then hire contractors? I often hear advocates of remote work talk about "presenteeism" and how managers need to just focus more on outputs. This is fine, but if they can do that why not sack everyone and just hire contractors and pay for the outpu…

In my experience, most people have just as much possibility of slacking off at the office than at home. We have colleagues to chat with, phones and even tablets with internet connectivity…

The main difference between employees and contractors are incentives. The contractor's goal is to get paid the most over the longest period of time. They don't care about your company's bottom line, they care about theirs, and the 2 aren't automatically aligned. The employees are more or less paid a fixed amount a month, their incentive is to stay around and get raises.

I've been working with contractors for years, and you absolutely need employees to ensure the contractor's output is aligned with the interest of the company, at all times and in detail.

Re: Why Working from Home Will Stick [pdf]

#460

Post by belorn » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

anonytrary wrote: post #292

This is ironic coming from Stanford, who is currently fucking up every single aspect of their handling of covid, as many Stanford students will attest to. Colleges are basically scammers at this point. The whole benefit of going to college is being able to meet like-minded smart, young people like yourself. Remote college isn't a thing and never will be. College is about people, as much as it is about learning. The u…

It hard to see the greatness in having someone else impose who your friends should be and where you should sit for about 50% of your awaken hours.

Then we have the added stress from places with open space/cubicle with poor sound isolation, people walking behind you, and constant interruption for which you have zero control over. Young 20-something Me could only really manage that with a corner chair and with headphones that blasted music so loud that people on the other side of the room complained.

I could however imagine a situation where I would enjoy the situation if given enough changes. If I were the group leader and decided who I worked with then the first problem goes mostly away. If the work I did was mostly social then the problem of noises and interruptions goes mostly away, and I might even want it to be a open space plan so I can walk around and stand behind my employees and check what they are doing. Doing that remotely would be much harder.