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Why webcams aren’t good enough

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Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#281

Post by solstice »

CodesInChaos wrote: post #171
masklinn wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I doubt they'd mind a camera bulge sticking out the back of their laptop. A bulge at the back of the laptop would be way more problematic e.g. way more likely to catch on bags, or otherwise be damaged. What I doubt most people would mind is the screen side being slightly thicker.

Or have a bulge on the front side of the screen and a corresponding mound on the keyboard side. While it conflicts with the touchpad, it could still be a worthwhile tradeoff.

Have two cams on the edges instead to avoid this and calculate an average image. (Or even use it for stereoscopy)

Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#282

Post by solstice »

rozab wrote: post #220
barkingcat wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yah this precisely. Why are phones allowed to have bulges and chins and notches, but laptops somehow are too "thin" to do the same? For that matter, why hasn't anyone made a laptop screen with a centre notch? people accepted that for phones and now every large manufacturer of phones use notches in their phones. Laptops are much larger and heavier so it's really doable to include a better camera. The only thing blocki…

Nobody buys a laptop for the webcam. That's why.

Are you sure that that won't have begun to change after one year of pandemic-related Home-Office?

Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#283

Post by totalZero »

acdha wrote: post #236
spijdar wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just an anecdote, but I've always felt the webcams on macs I've used the past few years are worse than much cheaper Wintel PC webcams. Could just be cognitive bias though, since everyone complains about mac webcams all the time.

I think it’d be interesting to compare with equivalent price points. Does a $2500 PC have a better camera than a MacBook Pro or is it really more like everyone is skimping and Mac owners are just more vocal about expecting something closer to a mid-2010s iPhone?

> Does a $2500 PC have a better camera than a MacBook Pro

Even the cheapest Galaxy S phones have a better front-facing camera than a 2020 MacBook Pro. 720p is less than one megapixel. Other PC makers have the same problem. https://www.wsj.com/video/series/joanna-stern-personal-techn...

The only justification I can think of for having such a cheap webcam is that it takes less battery power to process low-res streaming video at lower frame rates.

Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#284

Post by wazoox »

julienfr112 wrote: post #227
wazoox wrote: post #219

I have a C920. My main problem is that the camera runs at 60 fps, but here in Europe, lights are 50Hz. therefore, flickering is unbearably as soon as you're not using natural light. I can't find any solution to this...

I've got no problem with this camera from europe. I remember tinkering with the same camera model while setting up a camera booth for rescruting interview. There was an option in the python video library to set the camera to a frequency that prevent flickering.

Ah, interesting. My office is lit with fluorescent tubes, so the flickering is extreme. I'll check guvcview.

Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#285

Post by acdha »

totalZero wrote: post #283
acdha wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’d be interesting to compare with equivalent price points. Does a $2500 PC have a better camera than a MacBook Pro or is it really more like everyone is skimping and Mac owners are just more vocal about expecting something closer to a mid-2010s iPhone?

> Does a $2500 PC have a better camera than a MacBook Pro Even the cheapest Galaxy S phones have a better front-facing camera than a 2020 MacBook Pro. 720p is less than one megapixel. Other PC makers have the same problem. https://www.wsj.com/video/series/joanna-stern-personal-techn... The only justification I can think of for having such a cheap webcam is that it takes less battery power to process low-res streaming…

How thick is the MacBook Pro lid compared to that phone — especially when you factor in curvature & the screen hardware? I think the discrepancy is mostly explained by cameras being a feature which phone buyers pay a LOT of attention to, whereas it was an afterthought for most laptop users prior to 2020 while thinness was a marketing goal, and don't forget that laptop buyers pay the full price up front while a LOT of people pay for their “free” phones monthly.

I'm not in any way excusing the crappy hardware — my iPhone 6S should not be a better webcam than anything built-in or on the normal market now — but I think this is a pretty expected outcome of market forces reflecting buyers' priorities.

Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#286

Post by barkingcat »

nom wrote: post #249
barkingcat wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yah this precisely. Why are phones allowed to have bulges and chins and notches, but laptops somehow are too "thin" to do the same? For that matter, why hasn't anyone made a laptop screen with a centre notch? people accepted that for phones and now every large manufacturer of phones use notches in their phones. Laptops are much larger and heavier so it's really doable to include a better camera. The only thing blocki…

For the bulges you have to consider that most people use phone cases, which gives the designers a bit more room. On laptops you can either create a bump on the backside of the lid, which looks weird as the use of it is not obvious, or you can extend the camera in the front and create a dent in the bottom shell, which also has no clear use and seems out of place. Either way, it will look and feel weird. On phones it a…

This "look weird" issue also applies to the phone bumps, it's just that you haven't seen it before.

When the phone bumps and notches were first introduced it was plenty weird and ugly and obvious with no clear prediction of whether people will be bothered with it or not.

Obviously people are fine with it now.

If the market is a bit open minded with laptops, we can all have better webcams. Form follows function. If I can get a notched laptop with a great 4K laptop webcam, I couldn't care less that it has a weird notch.

Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#287

Post by mydjtl »

antomeie wrote: post #213

Hopefully I’m not stepping on anyones toes here, but as a hobby project I have been building an app that lets you use your iPhone as a webcam for your Mac. It will be completely free for anyone to use! I am currently running a beta and if you would like to help me test it then you can apply here: https://webcamplus.app/beta For reference, I have had a thread up on MacRumors Forum for a few weeks: https://forums.macru…

Do you plan on making a Windows version?

Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#288

Post by sebmellen »

mnw21cam wrote: post #207
sebmellen wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're on a Mac you may be able to pipe it through CamTwist. I can add more info if you're interested but would take some work to dig up.

No, Linux. I think I have found out how to use gphoto2 and a direct usb link instead of the capture card, which may fix it, but that'll have to run on my main computer, not my slow laptop. I'd love to be able to tell the v4l driver for the usb capture card to just not offer the 640*480 resolution. That would fix it in a better way. Anyone have any ideas how to do that?

Are you sure you need a USB capture card? I'm using an EOS M50 and I followed along with this guide: https://www.crackedthecode.co/how-to-use-your-dslr-as-a-webc.... Works pretty well, all FOSS stuff and avoids needing a capture card.

Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#289

Post by sebmellen »

klausjensen wrote: post #114
sebmellen wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed! DSLRs are great for this kind of stuff. I posted two links to guides on how to do this for Mac and Linux here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25870161 , if someone has a guide for Windows I'd love to see it.

+ for a guide for Windows

If you use a Canon camera, you might be able to get the EOS Webcam Utility working: https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/support/se....

Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#290

Post by ska »

clairity wrote: post #271
ska wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You miss my point, I think. Everyone who has access to video calls could trivially turn them into conference calls instead. The fact that they continue to prefer video for at least some situation demonstrates that, regardless of what else is going on, they find the video calls to have some additional utility. If your hypothesis were true, we would not observer this behavior.

no, that's trivially refuted by considering the simpler but still consistent explanation that video calls are employed to more closely mimic the contemporaneously rare in-person meetings without considering (negative) utility at all. in any case, your argument is circular because you're implicitly asserting utility must exist ('if they use video, it must have utility'), and then pointing to that just-asserted utility…

It doesn’t matter what the video calls are used for - the claim was they have less utility than phone calls. I suspect you are over thinking this. People choose video over phone only sometimes because it has more utility for them - hence the hypothesis is false. Simple.
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