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Why webcams aren’t good enough

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Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#271

Post by clairity »

ska wrote: post #259
clairity wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

an unsupported assertion is not conclusive proof. we’ve seen that people have been trying to substitute in-person meetings with video calls, but that doesn’t prove any additional utility beyond a conference call. even in educational or therapy/coaching situations, a recorded instructional video accompanied by a phone checkin likely has better outcomes than video chats.

You miss my point, I think. Everyone who has access to video calls could trivially turn them into conference calls instead. The fact that they continue to prefer video for at least some situation demonstrates that, regardless of what else is going on, they find the video calls to have some additional utility. If your hypothesis were true, we would not observer this behavior.

no, that's trivially refuted by considering the simpler but still consistent explanation that video calls are employed to more closely mimic the contemporaneously rare in-person meetings without considering (negative) utility at all.

in any case, your argument is circular because you're implicitly asserting utility must exist ('if they use video, it must have utility'), and then pointing to that just-asserted utility as (unsupported) refutation.

Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#272

Post by clairity »

Sunspark wrote: post #270
BlargMcLarg wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The way I see it, if you refuse to be seen in a virtual meeting, you should _also_ refuse to be seen in person as well Unfortunately, I don't have a golden goose. Virtual meetings, by virtue of being new, gave me an opportunity to push back onto the need of seeing one another. Not being in the office would be met with manager talks. >also, it's pretty rude to refuse to let yourself be seen. Are we really doing this?…

I responded to Stretchcat with extra detail because I am that guy with a hearing accessibility challenge. In response to what you said, I will add that I live by myself. If I can't see a coworker such as yourself over video, when am I going to get to see anyone? The only in-person interaction I have had since March outside of a neighbor on the sidewalk/going to the grocery store and seeing the cashier/going to the do…

yes, accessibility is a legitimate reason to prefer video calls. but the way you worded your original comment, it implied blanket rudeness for not prefering video all the time for everyone. it would indeed be rude to cut you or anyone else out of a conversation due to accessibility concerns in the absence of alternatives like computer-generated captions (as mentioned in your other comment).

Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#273

Post by stonecharioteer »

rstuart4133 wrote: post #265
acdha wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Johnny Ives was obsessed with thinness - it’s the same problem which lead to the bad keyboards. Now they’ve been putting people who haven’t forgotten about usability in charge I would not be surprised if the next case design included a non-terrible webcam since it’s unlikely that anyone is going to stop video conferencing even if we do go back to the office.

I have no doubt that Johnny Ives was obsessed with thinness. But ... my shiny new Lenovo Carbon X1, which is an engineering laptop if there ever was one, is developing key impressions all over it's very expensive 4K OLED screen because they didn't put enough space between the keyboard and the display when it is closed, presumably to keep the thing thin. It ain't just Mr Ives.

I'm curious why you'd think the x1 is better than a lot of other laptops that are much more affordable. My Dell G5 SE with a Ryzen 7, 32 GB Ram and 1.5TB SSD is a beast. I haven't begun to scrape the surface of what it can do. And with AMD doing so much better than Intel, I'm just surprised how people who want an engineering device still use Intel.

Im not an AMD fan boy, all my last devices were Intel. I'm just curious.

Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#274

Post by curryst »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #40

How big is the market for "good webcams"? If 99% of the people just need a "good enough" (to recognise your face) webcam, that they turn off after the initial "hello!" (so noone notices they have no pants on if they have to stand up), does that really make it worth it to develop new tech for the 1%? ...compared to phone cameras, where people actually want (and are willing to pay more) for a good camera, especially fo…

I keep mine on. I've noticed that coworkers who don't keep their cameras on seem less human. Without a face to the name, it's harder to conceptualize them as a person.

So I keep mine on. I think video presentation is going to become the new "dress for the job you want" over the next decade or so, so it's worth it to put a little bit of effort in. Now that remote is becoming normalized, do you want to be the person on Zoom with a video that's grainy from trying to compensate for the lack of light, or the person with lights that make them look like they just came from the spa all the time?

It shouldn't make a difference, but it does.

Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#275

Post by N3cr0ph4g1st »

Fnoord wrote: post #235
rozab wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody buys a laptop for the webcam. That's why.

Exactly, it just has to be good enough. Same with front facing camera. What isn't good enough is Dell's XPS bottom camera.

The bottom camera has been gone for a year or two now

Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#276

Post by rahimnathwani »

modulo42 wrote: post #268
noelsusman wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Blue Snowball is significantly better than anything in a webcam or phone and it's only $50.

I have heard this as well so I have got one. To my big surprise people on video calls can not tell the difference whether I am using the snowball mic or the one built in the webcam.

The Blue Snowball Ice looks similar to the Blue Snowball, but isn't as good.

If your webcam sounds as good as the Blue Snowball, either your webcam has an excellent mic, or you could improve your audio quality by either:

- speaking closer to the microphone, or

- sliding the switch on the back to position 1

Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#277

Post by sneak »

tibbon wrote: post #142

Here's what really bugs me. It's clear Apple has good cameras, excellent even. And small. Yet, the camera in my $2000 Macbook Pro? Remarkably worse than even the worse external webcam. If they can throw an amazing camera in a phone, why can't they put a decent one in a laptop?

Space. Your laptop lid is extremely thin. It's a marvel that it works as well as it does, given this constraint.

Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#278

Post by StringyBob »

rstuart4133 wrote: post #265
acdha wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Johnny Ives was obsessed with thinness - it’s the same problem which lead to the bad keyboards. Now they’ve been putting people who haven’t forgotten about usability in charge I would not be surprised if the next case design included a non-terrible webcam since it’s unlikely that anyone is going to stop video conferencing even if we do go back to the office.

I have no doubt that Johnny Ives was obsessed with thinness. But ... my shiny new Lenovo Carbon X1, which is an engineering laptop if there ever was one, is developing key impressions all over it's very expensive 4K OLED screen because they didn't put enough space between the keyboard and the display when it is closed, presumably to keep the thing thin. It ain't just Mr Ives.

Interestingly that happened with my 2016 MacBook Pro. When the screen needed to be replaced due to a panel cracked ribbon cable I noticed that the newer screens had a slightly deeper rubber gasket around the edge (reducing thinness by just under a mm or so) to stop the keyboard rubbing on the screen of the laptop.

Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#279

Post by woofie11 »

stonecharioteer wrote: post #273
rstuart4133 wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no doubt that Johnny Ives was obsessed with thinness. But ... my shiny new Lenovo Carbon X1, which is an engineering laptop if there ever was one, is developing key impressions all over it's very expensive 4K OLED screen because they didn't put enough space between the keyboard and the display when it is closed, presumably to keep the thing thin. It ain't just Mr Ives.

I'm curious why you'd think the x1 is better than a lot of other laptops that are much more affordable. My Dell G5 SE with a Ryzen 7, 32 GB Ram and 1.5TB SSD is a beast. I haven't begun to scrape the surface of what it can do. And with AMD doing so much better than Intel, I'm just surprised how people who want an engineering device still use Intel. Im not an AMD fan boy, all my last devices were Intel. I'm just curio…

Quality. ThinkPad, Apple, or some of Dell's premium lines won't break with life. This translates into:

- Mechanical build quality

- Choice of auxiliary components (wifi camera+chipset, etc.). If you're at a conference, you want to get connected and hook up to a projector reliably.

- Battery life

- Cooling

- Keyboard/pointer quality

- Size/weight

And so on. If you fly with a laptop once a week, whether the screws fall out from plane vibrations makes a difference.

One bad business trip, and you've covered the price delta of a half-dozen laptops. I'd never buy an over-speced, under-built laptop like the G5 SE. If my laptop is 15% slower, I care a lot less than if it's 15% more reliable.

Re: Why webcams aren’t good enough

#280

Post by timvdalen »

trinix912 wrote: post #188
timvdalen wrote: post #25

When I wasn't able to purchase a webcam (for a reasonable amount) at the beginning of the lockdown, I started using my Pixel 3 with DroidCam[1]. My video quality is consistently the best in all the meetings I'm in, so I can really recommend using your phone. I stream the video over adb myself, to make sure I don't drain the battery too much and to keep everything wired. [1]: https://www.dev47apps.com/

What are some good alternatives for macOS?

I don't have a good recommendation, but the article linked was written by someone promoting their solution[1].

[1]: https://reincubate.com/camo/

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