Earlier quoted context omitted.
> He was also recently steered away from pardoning himself Is pardoning oneself legally possible? EDIT: Seems possible but never tested. > The Constitution provides little guidance on the issue of a potential presidential selfpardon. Only one sentence is dedicated to pardons: “The President . . . shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.” L…
Even if he could, I don't think he would want to. It would mean admitting guilt and opening himself to give testimony on the crimes in prosecuting others as well as emboldening civil lawsuits. Also, since its an ex-President and leader of a political party there is no way to punish him without it being political, which means the next President is likely to pardon him anyways for expediency.
Anthony Levandowski Pardoned
971–980 of 996 posts
Re: Anthony Levandowski Pardoned
#972Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hmm.. I struggle to understand your logic. Embedded in the concept of Democracy is the fact that there is a rule by which a decision is made and once taken it impacts everyone lives. Just try to look from the other side of the fence. I can rephrase your question as: "So the few individuals living in rural areas should have the unopposed power to decide all of the federal policies that could impact the lives of the va…
Ideas that make sense to people in cities don't always make sense in rural areas. Let's say for an overly simplistic example everyone in a city thinks it's a great idea to tax anyone who lives in a home that has more than 2000 sq ft of living space. In the country _everyone_ meets this criteria so thereforethey are unfairly taxed.
How you cluster people is irrelevant for a policy to be fair or not. It's petty to chose what gives you an advantage. You should stick to a set of values and agree on policies that better express those values.
Re: Anthony Levandowski Pardoned
#973Earlier quoted context omitted.
This myth that the US constitution is in any way "good" is weird. It's one of the earliest; and fortunately others leared from its mistakes. Including the US itself, when it had considerable influence in drafting the WW2 losers constitutions, which uncoincidentally are quite different from the US. Checks and balances essentially don't work in the US. The best bit is simply a decent judiciary, but that was mostly copi…
>such as that congress is likely to deadlock; The bicameral requirement for a concurrent majority is entirely by design and has plenty of supporters. It's pretty egregious to cite this first on the list of supposedly crucial flaws. >that its form of democracy is subject to unproportional divergence as state population sizes diverge, that by contrast adding new states is way too easy The one fixes the other, but addin…
The issue isn't the bifurcation of congress by itself, it's that in addition the electoral system for both sides differs so greatly, and simultaneously that the US uses a winner take-all approach to assigning seats which converges to partisanship. Fix any one of those issues and the deadlock issue is reduced. It's the current bicameral nature that the problem, not the abstract notion. However, I also think that bicameralism is oversold - sure, made a lot of sense to try that, but the protections it supposedly provides are extremely slim in a partisan electorate. Part of the time there's deadlock, part of the time it's close (best case, but very rare and growing ever more rare as more congressmen toe the party line), and part of the time there's a trifecta, and there is in essence no bicameral congress, nor even really a separation of powers. The whole thing makes sense only if political parties either don't exist, or are constantly in some kind of coalition. But as in the US? There are only downsides, and virtually no upsides to a bicameral congress. Also, we know more now; other democracies don't have such strongly independant arms and if anything appear more stable.
> The one fixes the other, but adding new states turns out not to be that easy. From a political standpoint, larger states have an outsize cultural and regulatory influence (which is known to the state of California to cause cancer, but which cannot be mentioned in textbooks used in Texas schools) so compensating smaller states makes sense; voters in large states who feel their votes are diluted should, in principle, be able to correct this with a split. Is it a perfect balance? Not at all, but it's something.
Personally: I don't believe this problem is anything near as bad as the current problem (and it's likely overstated anyhow; even large states aren't that large). But yeah, splitting large states would be a good idea, even with proportional representation. But even if there it's worth boosting small states' influence, the current system is excessive. Fundamentally, I'm a little skeptical than non-proportionality is ever a great way to redress that sort of imbalance, but we could easily have a compromise system, e.g. N+1 senators (a kind of smoothing that boosts smaller states). Another thing we could do is limit large states' influence, e.g. by banning stuff like winner-takes-all solutions to the electoral college.
>> that elections at all are in no way shape or form necessarily fair
> A cultural and political flaw, not a Constitutional flaw. Maybe an omission, but you can't write all of the laws and practices necessary for a fair election into the Constitution; it would take up most of the document!
On the one hand: fair enough. On the other: that something so fundamental to a form of government isn't specified is a problem. This isn't black and white; the constitution doesn't and shouldn't include "all of the laws and practices". But the almost complete lack of ground rules - while very federal in spirit - also means that it's a race to the bottom, and what makes sense locally (gerrymandering, winner takes all, etc) isn't good for the whole. The ground rules here are lacking, and that makes sense historically - but then again, that's exacty my point: the constitution is a product of its time, and not a good fit today.
>> that the constitution isn't sufficiently amendable
> A risk-averse and historically motivated bias; we had one bad Amendment (the 18th) and the fallout really put a damper on amendment movements.
It's not just cultural, it's part of the rules too - it's way too easy for a tiny number of voters to essentially veto a change. Also, again, look around the rest of the world (here britain really stands out) - those protections don't seem to help in practice. Britain has no protections whatsoever on constitutional change, yet it hasn't collapsed after centuries. Again, I think that intuitively the idea of setting a high bar for amendments makes sense, but empyrically it does not appear to be borne out. Other protections might be to instead of raising a high bar, create a huge drag - make the process take a long time, and thus require multiple congresses to approve. Have veto-like capabilities, but ones that delay yet further, not prevent reform wholesale.
>> the lack of a checks on the presidency (clearly not intentional, but impeachment is a purely hypothetical check)
> Trump's impeachment trial was heavily impacted by the Democrats' primary season and not-so-subtle party establishment hopes that Warren would somehow pull out a win, so everything had to be rushed in order to avoid distracting her (and she lost badly anyway).
I think you're really focusing on the details here. Set aside whatever political agreements or disagreements you have; the fact is that today's impeachment is a political process that requires going against the grain of partisanship. It's way to attractive to reject impeachment for partisan reasons; because after all - a flawed president one agrees with is still better than giving the other side a win, and it gets worse given the senate's extremely unproportional nature. This causes real problems too; it's not just a question of who wins or who loses - what you see in other countries that have an easier time ejecting leaders is that they try to mitigate damage a lot early, and are a lot more careful to avoid the kind of transgressions that have plagued quite a few US presidents in living memory. And when they do engage in dubious behavior they often seek approval by others at least in their own congressional majorities beforehand, because they know they risk getting hung out to dry otherwise - and that itself is a valuable check on excesses. Alternatively, impeachment itself should have much more teeth.
Maybe trump is too recent a memory, but consider Clinton's impeachment. Sure, I think most people agree questioning a president about his sex life under oath was not reasonable - but lying under oath, really? The only reason that was OK was because the whole thing had the whiff of partisan witch-hunt, and that's a problem, because it'll always be spun to that. I'd rather have a system where everybody knows that if you pull a stunt like that you're liable to get removed. I don't mind if some other leader from the same party takes their place - in fact, that's a good idea, because it makes the process less about partisan rejection of the other side's election win, and more about personal responsibility - but leaders should not be even close to above the law; and right now they are - how bad does behavior need to get before they're actually punished?
Re: Anthony Levandowski Pardoned
#974Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the senate needs proportional representation too No, the Seventeenth Amendment should be repealed and state legislatures should be required to appoint senators. The United States form a federal government, not a unitary state; that means the several states should be represented. > If the senate were proportional, we could simply abolish the electoral college with little loss; just let congress elect the president a…
Regardless of how senators are picked, it's deeply problematic if representation is so divorced from population size. Alternatively, if we insist on retaining a fixed number of senators per state we could strip the senate of essentially all of its powers (perhaps becoming more advisory in role, with only the capability to temporarily filibuster house legislation); but that strikes me as being even more unachievable.…
The whole point of having two separate bodies is that it requires two groups that are chosen in a different manner to both agree that a piece of legislation is acceptable.
Re: Anthony Levandowski Pardoned
#975Earlier quoted context omitted.
> they cannot pardon state crimes State governors have that power.
Correct, but that wasn't given to them by the US constitution. Rather, that power rests with each individual state constitution. Further, depending on the state, it can be anywhere from unlimited to completely bound. [1] The role of "governor" isn't defined by any federal laws or rules. It's theoretically possible for a state to decide that it doesn't need a governor. [1] https://ccresourcecenter.org/state-restoratio…
The guarantee clause (Article IV section 4) says "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government..." What constitutes a "Republican Form of Government"? Is having a governor essential to it?
I think the answer is nobody can really say because the Supreme Court has never had to consider that exact question, and nobody knows how they'd rule if they did. They have previously ruled that the guarantee clause is "non-justiciable" (in Luther v. Borden, 1849), which implies they'd let a state adopt whatever form of government it likes, but they could change their mind about that if they wanted to.
What if a state wanted to adopt the Westminister system, like a Canadian province or Australian state? What would SCOTUS have to say about that?
Re: Anthony Levandowski Pardoned
#976Earlier quoted context omitted.
While pardon power originated from British law, the reason we kept it was what the OP referred to (see the federalist papers [1]). When forming the government the founders didn't just blindly copy British government. There was a lot of debate over what to keep and what to omit (For example, we don't have a king. Presidents were seen as servants not as rulers). Pardon power is mostly a direct copy of British pardon po…
In addition, the US Constitution introduces another dimension to the idea of separation of powers - that the various branches of government should be able to counteract one another in certain circumstances. The British approach is more appropriately labeled not as a separation of powers, but a fusion of powers [0] - probably the strongest example of such a government currently around today. [0] https://en.wikipedia.o…
The Westminster system subordinates the executive branch to the legislative, but keeps the judicial branch independent.
(In the past, the judicial branch in the UK was not completely separated from the legislative and executive, due to the judicial roles of the House of Lords and the Lord Chancellor, but that all changed in 2005. And other Westminster system countries such as Canada or Australia didn't have that issue.)
Re: Anthony Levandowski Pardoned
#977Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry to break it to you, but as with many things in the US constitution, the reason the President can pardon people is because it's a modified copy of the British constitutional system of the time. The House is Parliament, the Senate is the House of Lords, and the president can pardon people because King George III could and the office of the presidency is a limited term elected kingship. Executive orders are Royal…
This is sort of correct, except for two parts: The first constitution was the Articles of Confederation, which was extremely different from British constitutional design of the day; and the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty is distinctly British and did not migrate into the US Constitution. The idea of a First Amendment such as we have in America would be entirely foreign in Britain, for instance, since no sittin…
Distinctly English rather than distinctly British. As Lord Cooper said in MacCormick v. Lord Advocate, "the principle of the unlimited sovereignty of Parliament is a distinctively English principle which has no counterpart in Scottish Constitutional Law".
> no sitting parliament could ever restrict a majority of a future parliament from passing any law they saw fit
If the British Parliament tried to amend the Acts of Union 1707 to remove the protections granted to Scotland – for example, if it sought to abolish Scots law and replace it with English law – it is quite possible that the Scottish courts would rule such an Act of Parliament unconstitutional under Scots law, and also quite possible that the Supreme Court of the UK would uphold their ruling.
Re: Anthony Levandowski Pardoned
#978Earlier quoted context omitted.
However much you may dislike the particular individuals that trump has pardoned, he has used the pardon in a much more restrained way than Obama, who gave an order of magnitude more. So far, the pardon power is still a net good.
Okay, but why should the President be able to pardon people close to him including himself? Shouldn't the power be circumscribed to things that aren't obvious corruption? GWB pardoned Scooter Libby. George HWB pardoned Iran-Contra conspirators. Ford pardoned Nixon.
Re: Anthony Levandowski Pardoned
#979Earlier quoted context omitted.
Okay, but why should the President be able to pardon people close to him including himself? Shouldn't the power be circumscribed to things that aren't obvious corruption? GWB pardoned Scooter Libby. George HWB pardoned Iran-Contra conspirators. Ford pardoned Nixon.
Maybe, what would such a law look like?
Re: Anthony Levandowski Pardoned
#980Earlier quoted context omitted.
> That's a perfectly reasonable take especially on the federal/state separation which was novel, but is it really not possible there was some back-rationalisation going on? Isn't this true of your own original post?
What is it that you think I'm back-rationalising?
I don't really understand what argument you're trying to make.