Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#171

Post by whatshisface » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #166

karteum wrote: post #138

There are also aspects that should be considered in my opinion 1°/ individual intelligence and technological innovation is not necessary an ultimate achivement that enables competitive advantage : human beings may be individually smart (compared to some other species) yet the collective intelligence of humanity is rather poor (which translates to the unability to solve collective problems such as sustainable manageme…

It is important to remember when analyzing such things that evolution does not optimize the reproductive fitness of organisms, it optimizes the reproductive fitness of genes. Organisms are a side-effect, a result of the fact that cooperation often provides a competitive advantage [1]. But evolution neither knows nor cares about civilization. It just so happens that, at the moment here on earth, genes that build brain…

I'm not sure if birth control is the greatest example of our genes being the enemy. Birth control is popular because raising a child is horrifyingly net-negative in the 21st century (unlike most prior centuries, where it made you richer and secured your future), and also because birth is incredibly painful for humans specifically. Both of those are unpleasant facts, and many people would consider our civilization better if they changed.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#172

Post by dcolkitt » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

karteum wrote: post #138

There are also aspects that should be considered in my opinion 1°/ individual intelligence and technological innovation is not necessary an ultimate achivement that enables competitive advantage : human beings may be individually smart (compared to some other species) yet the collective intelligence of humanity is rather poor (which translates to the unability to solve collective problems such as sustainable manageme…

> even if some other intelligent species would exist, maybe they would not have the same need to communicate, the same need or will to travel, the same need or will to innovate, etc.

This is true. But even if just a small fraction of civilizations engaged in interstellar expansion, they'd quickly subsume the galaxy on geological timescales. Darwin applies just as much across the stars as it does in a tide pool. As long as there's even a small amount of competition, it will push every player to aggressively expand.

The only way out is either 1) technological civilization almost never evolve anywhere. 2) Virtually every technological civilization winds up eschewing interstellar expansion. Or 3) a single player previously won the game, and used its dominant position to benevolently stop the game.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#173

Post by mxcrossb » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

karaterobot wrote: post #151

I disagree with the author's statement that the Fermi paradox is "pretentious" because it assumes we have cosmic significance. I think a better word for that is "presumptuous", but pedantry aside, I don't believe the Fermi paradox ever says anything about what aliens think of humans. It asks why there isn't more evidence of aliens anywhere we've ever looked, not about why aliens haven't come to ask us for our wisdom…

I would also like to add that Fermi’s paradox doesn’t assume humans are interesting, it just assumed probes are cheap. If probes can easily and cheaply be made to cover the galaxy (and we know that this is possible even without major breakthroughs), aliens don’t need to be excited about us to visit the neighborhood.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#174

Post by jonnypotty » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

We went to visit the whales. We did not try and find out who their leader was, learn their language or attempt to introduce ourselves before habitually invading their environment and studying them. our problem with thinking about et is that we don't actually think seriously, we just start imagining star trek.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#175

Post by whatshisface » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

tachyonbeam wrote: post #170

whatshisface wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why would an intelligent species have to make any discoveries, or progress in any way? Maybe they spend all of their intelligence designing birdsongs, until some random natural event drives them extinct. Far from an alien psychology, humanity would be like that if you took away a fraction of the people with the greatest curiosity.

The way I see it, our curiosity and desire to explore is a reflection through our instincts of basic biological imperatives. Even bacteria "want" to explore, find new territories where there might be undiscovered resources, etc. Exploration is what helps a species survive long-term. We're smart, but the things we instinctively want are still a reflection of the basic things that any life form wants and needs. I don't…

Bacteria don't want to explore, they float around, and occasionally do gradient climbing to navigate to good chemicals. That's an example of a pro-survival technique that works very well, but is not going to lead to anything better. Every living thing on Earth except for people is an example of a living thing with some degree of intelligence, or at least beneficial control, but that does not have scientific progress.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#176

Post by fiftyfifty » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 4:30 PM UTC

karteum wrote: post #138

There are also aspects that should be considered in my opinion 1°/ individual intelligence and technological innovation is not necessary an ultimate achivement that enables competitive advantage : human beings may be individually smart (compared to some other species) yet the collective intelligence of humanity is rather poor (which translates to the unability to solve collective problems such as sustainable manageme…

I think the assumption by many that we are being visited by aliens was based on the idea that the universe must be just teeming with intelligent life. Over time we are gathering more and more data that shows that may just not be the case. As we've built better and better telescopes we've found no evidence of Type III Civilizations. We've intercepted no interstellar communications or even errant radio waves. As we learn more about other stars we find that many of them probably create hostile environments for life on nearby planets due to solar activity. On top of that a number of studies have come out recently like these two:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00057-8

https://phys.org/news/2018-06-advanced-civilization-universe...

that, through the use of models and simulations, come to the conclusion that we are dang lucky to have evolved on the Earth at all.

While I don't know that I was ever a believer in the Earth being visited by ETs, I always thought that we wound find evidence of intelligent life elsewhere in the galaxy any day now. For the reasons above, I'm less and less convinced of that with every passing year.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#177

Post by klmadfejno » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 4:30 PM UTC

karaterobot wrote: post #151

I disagree with the author's statement that the Fermi paradox is "pretentious" because it assumes we have cosmic significance. I think a better word for that is "presumptuous", but pedantry aside, I don't believe the Fermi paradox ever says anything about what aliens think of humans. It asks why there isn't more evidence of aliens anywhere we've ever looked, not about why aliens haven't come to ask us for our wisdom…

Hmm... If there was an earth 2, with the exact same properties, and a population of human lookalikes at the exact same level of tech as us, how far away would they need to be for us to have not detected them by now assuming we rolled a 10 for our perception check?

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#178

Post by whatshisface » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 4:32 PM UTC

klmadfejno wrote: post #167

whatshisface wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why would an intelligent species have to make any discoveries, or progress in any way? Maybe they spend all of their intelligence designing birdsongs, until some random natural event drives them extinct. Far from an alien psychology, humanity would be like that if you took away a fraction of the people with the greatest curiosity.

Because discoveries are useful. If the collective reason for your species' existence is writing birdsong, you're going to want agriculture to ensure people can eat, medicine to prevent them from dying, and electricity to make rad synthetic birdsong dubstep remixes. Tech solves problems, and everyone has problems. Doesn't mean you need to leave the solar system though.

How is this hypothetical species going to discover any medicine if they spend all their time writing birdsongs? Any individual with a slightly lower proclivity to write birdsongs will be evicted from the gene pool with great prejudice, so there is no chance that anyone will ever be born with the desire to spend a whole hour thinking about something else. Again, if this seems unrealistic, just imagine humanity with the mean "art vs. programming" balance of desires shifted a little bit towards art. There are many people who do not care at all about doing the kinds of things that lead to solving problems, and it is easy to imagine a species that is just them.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#179

Post by lhorie » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 4:33 PM UTC

nend wrote: post #2

>We may be a phenomenon as uninteresting to them as ants are to us; after all, when we’re walking down the sidewalk we rarely if ever examine every ant along our path. Not really the most convincing argument. There are professions that study ants. And I'm sure I'm not the only person on this forum that has a casual interest in observing ants. Pretty sure aliens would still be interested in us even if we were as primi…

I also think the argument isn't put forward in the best logical way, but for a different reason: another potential reason why aliens might not choose to come to visit us is that they physically can't: imagine a lifeform whose chemistry is based on liquid methane instead of water. They'd literally vaporize in Earth's atmosphere!

They could also operate on a completely different timescale. For example, shrews' metabolism is way faster than ours. Sequoias are way slower. There's no reason an alien should perceive time on the same scale we do.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#180

Post by notahacker » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 4:34 PM UTC

pre wrote: post #18

Fermi's paradox says nothing about how likely aliens are to visit earth. It notes that we can't see any sign of them when we look into the sky. Perhaps the humans don't care about the ants, but the ants damn well can see signs of human activity.

Would an intelligent ant species living on an uninhabited island identify global warming and driftwood as conclusive evidence of the existence of a higher intelligence causing it?