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Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

scientificamerican.com

151–160 of 299 posts

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#151
I disagree with the author's statement that the Fermi paradox is "pretentious" because it assumes we have cosmic significance. I think a better word for that is "presumptuous", but pedantry aside, I don't believe the Fermi paradox ever says anything about what aliens think of humans.

It asks why there isn't more evidence of aliens anywhere we've ever looked, not about why aliens haven't come to ask us for our wisdom on philosophical matters. It's not asking why they haven't contacted us, it's asking why we can't see them, or any evidence of them. In other words, it's about the statistical likelihood of seeing evidence that should be commonplace, given the age of the universe.

He brings up the point that we might be too primitive to even notice them. Fair enough, but you could just as easily say that it's "pretentious" to say elves don't exist, because we might just be too primitive and narrow-minded to see that there is evidence of them everywhere. We have to start somewhere, and we're doing our best.

The Fermi paradox may have a built in assumption that aliens affect their world through technology, and even that they are scientifically advanced and curious enough to send probes or ships out to explore. An attack on that point would be fair. It's possible that the answer to the paradox is that humans are extremely rare in having developed any level of technology, science, or curiosity. But, that seems more pretentious to me than the alternative.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#152
post #131

It's all about computation. The computer running universe-simulations needs to be able to run fast. Regularities can be integrated quickly. Life not so much. Life can make computers which can ask computations which can't be reduced. Therefore as soon as a big enough computer is built somewhere in the universe, the whole simulation-time starts crawling to an halt because the inner computer use all the resources, and f…

You give life and computers some special place in the universe for being to able "ask computations which can't be reduced". I don't think that's warranted. In the end, it's all fundamental particles and forces and interactions. I don't see why life would be special in that regard. A small part of material in the core of a star "asks" many more questions each second than a piece of brain tissue or a silicon chip.

But their very point was that the simulation wouldn't have to compute every single individual particle, only the "interesting" ones. The rest would be approximated to whatever level required.

I basically agree with you but I can't see how your argument applies here.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#153
post #120

Scientists thinking like scientists! I'd presume an advanced culture that can traverse the galaxy has many resources. Like humanity, I'd assume that with abundance, entertainment would be prioritized. We might be nothing more than a new source of fashion and novelty to them! They may like Rock & Roll, our food, our clothing, or even pogs. We might even be boring to them for the moment, but they're hoping for a future…

Rather presupposes that alien life is similar enough to humanity for culture and art to be more-or-less mutually intelligible.

Would extraterrestrials who communicate with pheremones, or touch, or don't communicate at all (ala "Blindsight") have any concept of music? If they can "hear", does their sensory range overlap ours? Is it compatible with our notion of musical scales? Does whatever passes for a nervous system operate at a similar timescale to ours?

Food and clothing seem like more of a stretch- even within earth's biosphere many substances humans can eat are poisonous to other animals, and vice versa. Vast differences in bodyplan would almost certainly make our clothing useless to an alien race, and the materials we use could easily be incompatible with their biology.

Even if aliens were substantially similar psychologically, minor changes in biology could result in completely different societies. What would our world look like with humans who reproduced asexually, or in triads? Where we produce our own food via photosynthesis or symbiosis? Where we didn't sleep, or different populations hibernated in their own cycles?

Overall I'm inclined to believe that cultural exchange with an intelligent extraterrestrial species would be harder and less productive than cultural exchange with parrots.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#154

There are also aspects that should be considered in my opinion 1°/ individual intelligence and technological innovation is not necessary an ultimate achivement that enables competitive advantage : human beings may be individually smart (compared to some other species) yet the collective intelligence of humanity is rather poor (which translates to the unability to solve collective problems such as sustainable manageme…

> even if some other intelligent species would exist, maybe they would not have the same need to communicate, the same need or will to travel, the same need or will to innovate, etc. I think this is unlikely. It seems to me that some amount of curiosity would be a prerequisite for being able to make discoveries that lead to technological progress. Although I suppose it is possible such progress could be made through…

But why would an intelligent species have to make any discoveries, or progress in any way? Maybe they spend all of their intelligence designing birdsongs, until some random natural event drives them extinct. Far from an alien psychology, humanity would be like that if you took away a fraction of the people with the greatest curiosity.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#155
post #2

>We may be a phenomenon as uninteresting to them as ants are to us; after all, when we’re walking down the sidewalk we rarely if ever examine every ant along our path. Not really the most convincing argument. There are professions that study ants. And I'm sure I'm not the only person on this forum that has a casual interest in observing ants. Pretty sure aliens would still be interested in us even if we were as primi…

A better version of that argument might be: "if ants evolved to have higher than human intellect and technology - would they be interested in studying us humans?"

I think the answer is far less clear in that scenario.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#156

There are also aspects that should be considered in my opinion 1°/ individual intelligence and technological innovation is not necessary an ultimate achivement that enables competitive advantage : human beings may be individually smart (compared to some other species) yet the collective intelligence of humanity is rather poor (which translates to the unability to solve collective problems such as sustainable manageme…

[deleted]

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#157
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure I'm not the only person on this forum that has a casual interest in observing ants From Wikipedia for "ant": "More than 12,500 of an estimated total of 22,000 species have been classified." From our human perspective, we are interested in ants. Everybody has seen ants. Everybody is curious about ants. From an ant perspective, humans scarcely exist. There are 10,000 ant species that don't have a relationshi…

Yes but there's a difference between being unable to study all ant species due to a lack of resources, and being uninterested in doing so. I expect we'll continue studying ant species with the goal of studying all of them we can (assuming we don't wipe ourselves out or ant species out before we have a chance to). Similarly I also expect we (or an advanced alien species) would attempt to study as many other alien spec…

> being unable to study all ant species due to a lack of resources, and being uninterested in doing so.

Of course! That's my point.

Back to the alien analogy: if we believe that human-like life is as common across the universe as ants are on earth, then more-advanced aliens might well be philosophically interested in studying us, but not have yet bothered to reach us.

They might be busy "contacting" their local human-ish specieses who they see everywhere, all the time, and not think it is important to spend time contacting similar planet #12358 on the list, that's a bit further out of the way, and could take them a million years of dedicated effort.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#158

There are also aspects that should be considered in my opinion 1°/ individual intelligence and technological innovation is not necessary an ultimate achivement that enables competitive advantage : human beings may be individually smart (compared to some other species) yet the collective intelligence of humanity is rather poor (which translates to the unability to solve collective problems such as sustainable manageme…

>maybe the laws of physics together with the nature/amount of natural resources on a typical planet do not enable such intergalactic space travels

This is already known not to be the case, the Breakthrough Starshot project is expensive, but merely expensive.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#159
post #64
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ants are interesting because of the complex behavioral systems emerging from their comparatively simple biological systems, reminiscent of the game of life. Seeing the insane complexity of the human condition (look at the amount of scientific disciplines we come up with) and thinking "nay, this won't be interesting to a higher mind" feels awfully dismissive. sure, depending on the leap of sophistication we may appear…

Recently I had a bunch of snails appear out of nowhere all over the garden. And I spent a whole lot of time, trying to figure out what they were feeding on, cuz some were getting really big. The whole thing was quite fascinating...like how the hell were they producing these huge ass shells without tearing all the plants apart? So I call a good buddy over (PhD in bio something or the other) thinking he would be as fas…

Maybe he already knew about how the snails did their thing.

Re: Why do we assume extraterrestrials might want to visit us?

#160
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recently I had a bunch of snails appear out of nowhere all over the garden. And I spent a whole lot of time, trying to figure out what they were feeding on, cuz some were getting really big. The whole thing was quite fascinating...like how the hell were they producing these huge ass shells without tearing all the plants apart? So I call a good buddy over (PhD in bio something or the other) thinking he would be as fas…

How did you know they were edible? I mean, I know people eat snails in certain parts, but how did you know these were safe?

In Germany I only ever eat helix pomatia[1]. Nowadays, they are under nature protection. Only the consumption of cultivated snails is allowed. They are related to mussels and taste similar. I can especially recommend snail cream soup.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helix_pomatia

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