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Porting Firefox to Apple Silicon

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Re: Porting Firefox to Apple Silicon

#31

Is “apple silicon” the port job here? Isn’t this more correctly described as a port of their existing ARM64 target to macOS?

On iOS there are no web browsers other than Safari, per the app store rules. "Chrome" / "Firefox" / etc on iOS are just basically skins on top of Webkit.

See 2.5.6 here - https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/

This is why you don't get any of the features / extensions / etc of Chrome or Firefox on iOS.

Apple does this so that the mobile web can never replace apps that they have a monopoly on and get a % from. If you could just visit netflix.com and have it install a Netflix SPA that worked as well as the native app, why would you ever install the native app?

Edit after reading replies - lol, that programming of Apple users to believe "we need an app for every possible site".

Re: Porting Firefox to Apple Silicon

#32
post #10
post #2

We talk often on this forum of how innaccessible giants like Google and Amazon are for the little guy. I thus found this point particularly interesting: >"Attempts to contact the vendor through regular support channels were unsuccessful so we ended up searching LinkedIn and managed to find an engineer working on the core antivirus detection. They immediately understood the seriousness of the problem and took prompt a…

I was a back channel route to engineering at a company I worked for a while. A few of the engineers trusted me and a couple select customers / sales guys knew they could come to me to run a bug by me 'in theory' and if we had enough information I could unofficially run it by engineering without going through the song and dance of the typical support channels. I could get a quick ya or nay form them on some things and…

That sounds like a dream career -- any advice getting there when you've hacked on graveyard startups most your life?

Re: Porting Firefox to Apple Silicon

#33
post #10
post #2

We talk often on this forum of how innaccessible giants like Google and Amazon are for the little guy. I thus found this point particularly interesting: >"Attempts to contact the vendor through regular support channels were unsuccessful so we ended up searching LinkedIn and managed to find an engineer working on the core antivirus detection. They immediately understood the seriousness of the problem and took prompt a…

I was a back channel route to engineering at a company I worked for a while. A few of the engineers trusted me and a couple select customers / sales guys knew they could come to me to run a bug by me 'in theory' and if we had enough information I could unofficially run it by engineering without going through the song and dance of the typical support channels. I could get a quick ya or nay form them on some things and…

This exists in almost every company by design. Engineering teams wouldn't make any progress towards their mission if they are constantly dealing with outside interruptions, but at the same time there are things which should be qualified.

Customer support is a cost center and the focus is on mitigating the cost of providing that support. If you fail to do this you can burn through a lot of cash quickly. What management needs to realize is that this is also an important interface point which requires attention. This doesn't happen at all, or is inconsistent.

It's important for at least the following to happen:

1. Bad issues that engineering will fix don't get stuck in support.

2. Product management review and respond to feature requests, or enable support to respond to customers.

3. Support have a reasonable level of technical and communication skill, and are empowered to answer for the company.

4. The organization works through rather than around support.

What I've always found interesting, is that all of these are often failing in some way at the same time in an organization of any size.

Your role as the back channel is helping to provide some coherence here. However, things can go bad if you left. Inevitably, this is the fault of the company, but when I've found myself in this position I've tried to "promote" people in support to take the lead on this role. Further, formalizing the special request process to be minimally tracked helps visibility with my manager and others. Eventually managers ask why you have become a gopher.

Improving the workflow often involves helping support build relationships with engineering. Management can buy in if support attrition is high (it often is if there is a limited career ladder for support) and it can also improve their perception when people are focused on trimming support cost.

Re: Porting Firefox to Apple Silicon

#34
post #2

We talk often on this forum of how innaccessible giants like Google and Amazon are for the little guy. I thus found this point particularly interesting: >"Attempts to contact the vendor through regular support channels were unsuccessful so we ended up searching LinkedIn and managed to find an engineer working on the core antivirus detection. They immediately understood the seriousness of the problem and took prompt a…

I guess this was Cylance: I ran into this one on my work laptop with Firefox Nightly and managed to get it escalated internally from us too.

Re: Porting Firefox to Apple Silicon

#35
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Mozilla can’t get a hold of anyone... 20 years ago Google would have sent someone to Mozilla HQ for a week to work on stuff

This is the problem with jumping to conclusions from a vague excerpt. The vendor is some random anti-virus vendor and if you know what trying to get a handle there means.... > More of a concern was user reports that some antivirus software was flagging all our Universal Binaries as malware, and corrupting the Firefox installation the moment the update arrived. > The software was using machine learning techniques and…

It was Cylance made by Blackberry.

Re: Porting Firefox to Apple Silicon

#36
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Mozilla can’t get a hold of anyone... 20 years ago Google would have sent someone to Mozilla HQ for a week to work on stuff

Apple did this when transitioning from CodeWarrior to the GNU chain. Apple had to apply patches to the C++ compiler for the company I was at.

This is surprisingly common for large companies. It often isn't formalized because no one wants to dedicate engineers to going onsite with customers.

Often the expert is too valuable to give up, or is a poor choice for customer engagement. If you have a consulting team, they may lack the experience needed, or reputation, that the customer wants. As soon as you send the expert onsite, you will have a challenge not sending them at a later time. This scares off engineering managers from lending their engineers because inevitably they have to fight off the requests.

The better workflow is one where you can send a less expensive resource (however you measure it) onsite and have them work remotely with the expert. If you can stick with that you often end up with the onsite person leveling up their skills and the ability to re-engage in a scalable manner. Any engagement needs prep before the onsite, a plan for escalation when onsite, and a disengagement plan.

Re: Porting Firefox to Apple Silicon

#37

A bit tangential to the main topic of the post. They mention that they are working on another optimizing compiler Ion which will replace the cranelift compiler (which is still in nightly) as the new compiler for WebAssembly. They link the issue [1] tracking the change which also speaks about disabling cranelift. To my knowledge cranelift was made for the purpose of compiling WebAssembly in Firefox, so I am not sure i…

> They mention that they are working on another optimizing compiler Ion which will replace the cranelift compiler (which is still in nightly) as the new compiler for WebAssembly.

Ion (nee IonMonkey) predates Cranelift, being the natural evolution of Mozilla's previous SpiderMonkey JITs. From your link:

"Prototyping work (bug 1678097) has demonstrated that Ion can generate good code quickly for wasm on ARM64, and given that Ion has good stability and we know it well, we will ship it as the initial optimizing compiler for wasm on that platform."

The keyword being "initial"; it appears to just be saying that Ion is good enough to enable, with support for Cranelift being retained in the event that it ever surpasses IonMonkey in capability.

Re: Porting Firefox to Apple Silicon

#39
post #33
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a back channel route to engineering at a company I worked for a while. A few of the engineers trusted me and a couple select customers / sales guys knew they could come to me to run a bug by me 'in theory' and if we had enough information I could unofficially run it by engineering without going through the song and dance of the typical support channels. I could get a quick ya or nay form them on some things and…

This exists in almost every company by design. Engineering teams wouldn't make any progress towards their mission if they are constantly dealing with outside interruptions, but at the same time there are things which should be qualified. Customer support is a cost center and the focus is on mitigating the cost of providing that support. If you fail to do this you can burn through a lot of cash quickly. What managemen…

The biggest problem we have in software engineering is the lack of support staff. You don't think a civil engineer has to deal with minutiae of paperwork, but software engineers for some strange reason think it is ok to be inundated by clerical work all the time. The industry eventually must evolve to create software assistants capable of running code, triaging bugs, etc.

Re: Porting Firefox to Apple Silicon

#40
post #33
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a back channel route to engineering at a company I worked for a while. A few of the engineers trusted me and a couple select customers / sales guys knew they could come to me to run a bug by me 'in theory' and if we had enough information I could unofficially run it by engineering without going through the song and dance of the typical support channels. I could get a quick ya or nay form them on some things and…

This exists in almost every company by design. Engineering teams wouldn't make any progress towards their mission if they are constantly dealing with outside interruptions, but at the same time there are things which should be qualified. Customer support is a cost center and the focus is on mitigating the cost of providing that support. If you fail to do this you can burn through a lot of cash quickly. What managemen…

The binary distinction between "cost centers" and "profit centers" has always seemed arbitrary to me (especially since, as an engineer, I've been in both without my work being substantially different).

To be frank, it seems like an organizational way to say "we don't find this work to be valuable or interesting, and we'd like to do the bare minimum of it - in fact, we'd like to unleash smart people to explore new frontiers of just how minimal the bare minimum could possibly be."

It seems like this leads to incredibly predictable problems: brain drain, demoralized workers, the bare minimum being aimed for and not actually being achieved, etc.

I feel like a better organization has no "cost centers" - every single role at the company contributes to the mission and to the bottom line. If they didn't, that position wouldn't exist.

What am I missing?

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