Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook • Hacker News Board

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#891

Post by jcadam » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 3:56 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #368

whoknew1122 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I apologize for being imprecise. Far-right terrorism hasn't been taken seriously until a far-right terrorist actually commits violence. Then government is vigilant for a couple of years and goes back to ignoring them. Far-right terror was taken seriously after the OKC bombing. But the far-right terrorist threat had been steadily increasing for three years at that point. Ruby Ridge and the Waco Siege contributed to a…

They took far right terrorism seriously in the 1870s. They more or less stamped out the (original) KKK while simultaneously giving the south the requisite autonomy to enact Jim Crow. Obviously Jim Crow doesn't square with our modern view but at the time the lack of some systemic way to keep the black people down was a serious grievance that a lot of people had. The government cracked down on the extremists who were s…

Allowing the riots to continue unabated over the summer was a serious mistake. It fed a perception that political violence and intimidation was a viable means to get what you want.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#892

Post by jjoonathan » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 3:59 PM UTC

gwright wrote: post #717

jackson1442 wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're being binary, yes, both situations sucked. For some reason, most arguments I see regarding this fail to even see the slightest shade of gray. I, for one, believe that taking over a city block and declaring it an autonomous zone is significantly less concerning than attempting to stop the presidential election -- arguably the single most important piece of our democracy -- from happening, calling for the deat…

I don't understand the need to rank violent events. Outrage against these violent events isn't a zero sum game that requires us to pick and choose between them. Vandalism, trespassing, arson, assault, and so on can and should be prosecuted because they are crimes. Full stop. The ideological motivation of the perpetrators should be irrelevant with respect to prosecuting the crimes. I do realize that the impact and rep…

It's not about "ranking events" or some nonsense, it's about making sure everything that should be prosecuted gets prosecuted. The right desperately wants to focus on

> Vandalism, trespassing, arson, assault

, which BLM and the Capitol Riots had in common, to distract from the attempt to overturn the election of the President of the United States of America, which they did not have in common.

All of it should be prosecuted. Both the parts they had in common and the parts they did not.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#893

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

sol_invictus wrote: post #497

zarkov99 wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you call the Capital Hill Autonomous Zone if not an attempt at insurrection? Come on, can we have some intellectual honesty here? Both situations sucked, the people involved sucked, their reasoning sucked and they should all go to jail so that sane people can get back to their lives in peace. We are being forced into building absurd logical houses of cards just so we do not concede an inch to the other sid…

This has been the left’s rhetoric for eons. They always excuse their actions because of their ”noble” goals. Same regarding policy - its the stated goal that matters, not the end results and real-world consequences of their policies. Having a convicted terrorist as a director of their beloved BLM movement means nothing. Lofty ideals matter. Invading a city block means nothing. Lofty ideals matter. If you don’t think…

[deleted]

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#894

Post by jjoonathan » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

gwright wrote: post #721

jjoonathan wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equating a bunch of dumb activists taking over six city blocks to an attempt to overturn the election of POTUS is "intellectual honesty"? Look, I'll agree that everyone involved with both CHAZ and the Capitol Riots needs to go to jail. That includes Donald Trump, though. He was the one trying an end-run around the US electoral process in order to hold on to power for four more years.

Who is "equating"? They are different but both bad. No reason to excuse either of them in any way. No need to decide which one is worth prosecuting and which one isn't.

> Who is "equating"?

You are, in your post upthread.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#895

Post by freshedplug » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

konjin wrote: post #510

bigiain wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cynical view: Because way too much of law enforcement is totally in on it, from upper management right the way down to beat cops. Compare their (collective) preparations and actions on the 6th to their preparation and actions at many many black lives matter protests. Like the song says: "Some of those who join forces, are the same who burn crosses."

Or they paid exactly the right amount of attention to it and it's only the media that's blown it out of proportion. Had this been a BLM protest it would have been one of the 'mostly peaceful' ones with questions about why a rent a cop killed her when the professionals in front of him didn't think it was a situation to use deadly force in. The hypocrisy from both sides is astonishing and the reason why cops can kill w…

I'm pretty surprised to not see more opinions like this. I'm in Minneapolis. Last summer, during the protests a police station was burned. To me, it seemed like a protest that got out of hand. Didn't seem like am organized attack on the police station.

At the capital, that also seems to me like a protest that got out of hand.

In each case, the opposing side seems convinced of much more malicious intent. I think that is the worst part - everyone is deeply offended when their opposition does X, but they support their own flavor of X when done by their side.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#896

Post by wutbrodo » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #856

wutbrodo wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean this unkindly, but your information diet has incredibly serious problems if you haven't come across any legitimate criticisms of the BLM org in the past. As someone whose pet issue has been police and justice system violence for a really, really long time, I really wish BLM wasn't the organization/movement representing this particular struggle[1]. The 2020 iteration is a little more connected to reality…

> I don't mean this unkindly, but your information diet has incredibly serious problems if you haven't come across any legitimate criticisms of the BLM org in the past. This is a fair point, but most people are happy to go along with the narrative rather than think critically about these issues. If you aren’t wallowing in a post-truth groupthink bubble, the world of today is really uncomfortable and lonely sometimes.

> If you aren’t wallowing in a post-truth groupthink bubble, the world of today is really uncomfortable and lonely sometimes.

I dunno... For the most part, my close friends are too intelligent to have this tendency (likely not a coincidence, but implicit assortative matching), but I have a couple close friends and many less-close friends who aren't. It seems to bring them a lot of emotional pain and frustration.

If your worldview is effectively religious, the heretics who blaspheme against the One True Flawless Way by disagreeing with you are reduced to actively-evil monsters. If you happen to live in a modern, pluralistic society instead of Reconquista Spain, this is a recipe for constant frothing fury at the tens of millions of people who don't share any given viewpoint you may hold. To my eyes, this is wayyy more uncomfortable than always being the person disagreeing,even if minorly, with the groupthink session.

Regarding loneliness, the part of my brain that enjoys the seduction of blind, rabid group membership seems to be missing (eg I've never been a pro sports fan either, despite being a fairly avid sportsman in the past). I can understand how this would be lonely for many, but... I dunno, being a bad person is fun, I don't think that's much of an excuse for doing it.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#897

Post by mushbino » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

lenkite wrote: post #853

akiselev wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

93% of the BLM protests were peaceful [1] despite protestors numbering in the millions, if not tens of millions - compared to the tens of thousands at the capitol. The most notable violence during the BLM protests was an incident where far right extremists, members of Bugaloo boys group involved in the capitol attack, used the protests as cover to murder cops [2]. To compare the two is disingenuous. [1] https://acled…

Well, just today 11 officers were injured in the MLK day protest at City Hall, NYC. The Police Commissioner Dermot Shea himself stated that this was not a peaceful protest. What about the BLM protesters who attempted to burn down the Portland courthouse with federal officers inside ? Why is this not actively denounced as terrorism ? https://nypost.com/2020/07/22/portland-protesters-barricade-...

Antifa doesn't even exist as an organization and yet it was classified as a terrorist organization. I know many people who live in Portland with families and exactly zero of them had any concern about the protesters, fwiw.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#898

Post by mushbino » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

masonic wrote: post #794

tigershark wrote: post #782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They had homemade bombs. They had firearms. They had bags full of restraints. Their intent was to kidnap and kill the politicians and they almost succeeded if it wasn’t for the hero that killed the terrorist that was breaching the only door left between them and the politicians. You are disingenuous if for you this wasn’t a terrorist attack just because they didn’t succeed and only managed to kill some cops instead o…

They had homemade bombs. They had firearms. They had bags full of restraints. How many functional "bombs" were deployed? How many people were shot (by trespassers)? How many abductions occurred?

Luckily they never got to their intended targets.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#899

Post by AzzieElbab » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 4:34 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #877

AzzieElbab wrote: post #873

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read Aws letter not buzzfeed take on it. I advise you do the same

I did, and I see no distinction between what Parler was accused of and what the article we are discussing uncovered about Facebook. Actual planning - not just vague calls for violence - occurred, in plain view, on Facebook, and nothing was done about it. Therefore, if we apply the same standard, Facebook should not be operating this morning. Here’s a direct quote from the Amazon letter you referred to: ”...we cannot…

I am not arguing against double standard at all. I am saying there is no evidence that riots were planned on parler and Aws never said they were

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#900

Post by mindslight » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 4:35 PM UTC

pbourke wrote: post #762

mindslight wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who is sympathetic to both cultures, this has been painful to watch. Now that it's time for the powers that be to punish the red tribe, the blue tribe is all too happy to join in the authoritarianism - eg feigning outrage at the gallows (ignoring the guillotine symbolism of the past year), assertions that speech must be policed, and calls to take right-wing terrorism "seriously" (meaning attack red tribe p…

> assertions that speech must be policed You have never been guaranteed a venue on the internet. You have always punched your ticket on any platform - including the one that we're typing on now - by colouring within the lines of the powers that be. Sometimes the lines will change, and what was acceptable or tolerated is suddenly outside the window. Sometimes (most of the time?) these lines move for fairly cynical rea…

You've blasted a talking point in response to an assertion that I did not make. There is a significant distinction between a platform choosing to censor, and acting like all platforms have some duty to censor. There are many such calls for the latter in this thread.

FWIW I have previously argued that platforms have a moral obligation to carry less popular speech, but I'm done arguing that after the "stop the steal" propaganda campaign. What's happening now is inevitable, and the real solutions for Freedom are mandated interop (mitigating Metcalfe's law), and/or p2p communications (which has always been the correct answer before AJAX was even a term, albeit economically non-lucrative)

> I'm also happy that they've set up shop in a place that is fair game for the entire law enforcement and intelligence apparatus in case they try to plan more insurrections.

There's that authoritarianism peeking out - "they can go their own way, but we'll hit them with a bigger stick". From a technical perspective, being outside the US seems harder to surveil. US users will continue to use HTTPS and post public comments, so nothing changes there. Meanwhile the session traffic from foreign troll farms becomes invisible. Pushing social media away from domestic firms is actually a national security misstep, IMO.