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Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

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Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#161
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't bring in someone's posts on other sites as ammunition in an argument here. I know it always feels relevant, but the general case of people behaving this way is very ugly indeed, and we're trying to avoid the online callout/shaming culture here. It's sufficient to reply to what someone has actually posted in this context. https://hn.algolia.com/?query=online%20shaming%20by%3Adang&s...

Should I remove the references? I'd be glad to if you think that's appropriate.

I wouldn't worry about it. The main thing is not to repeat the pattern.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's ridiculous if you only know China through the media. But have you considered that maybe the media representation is inaccurate? I've actually lived there, my wife comes from there, and my family is still there. This is combined with new information about China coming from the west, and having no restrictions here. I've studied some of China's recent history, a subject which is rarely taught in the west…

I find your comments interesting because I've lived in Amsterdam for a significant period of time (as well as Switzerland, Germany, and Denmark), and I've intersected with a lot of people who probably have very similar life stories to you! I think the crowd I interact with is probably somewhat different though, because they're mostly crypto/blockchain people. While I have encountered a fair number of expats who moved…

The thing is, I don't even consider myself particularly pro-CCP. But CCP is the only party that actually advances the interests of Chinese civilization. All the other parties only care about destroying CCP, no matter the negative consequences to Chinese society. Also, half of the reasons people use to oppose the CCP, are either false, or based on twisted half-truths. When I see such unwarranted attacks, how can I not help but feel defensive? It's my and my relatives' future that's at stake.

I don't need everyone to become CCP fans. I'd already be happy if people can see CCP in a more realistic, nuanced manner, rather than a cartoon villain.

> However, I have a very strong distaste for the CCP and really would like to see them dismantled. For this reason, I doubt I will ever visit China, simply because I've been very publicly vocal in this position.

This reminds me of myself more than 10 years ago. Back then I had been indoctrinated by western media and western views of China for 15 years. China is bad, China is communism, China kills people, Mao killed millions, one child policy bad, etc. When at the airport and police stations I saw government workers with those typical hats on, an alarm bell goes off in my head: OMG communism!!!!

But years later, I got married to my Chinese wife. I started having more interactions with Chinese people. I started researching Chinese recent history. I started researching Chinese society. I started talking to westerners actually living in China.

And I found out that a lot of the stuff people here say about the CCP are twisted half-truths, either deliberately or based on misunderstandings due to different culture and values. The Chinese police, rather than brutal enforces, and actually very friendly, don't carry guns, and it's very common for people to quarrel with the police without suffering consequences. Try that in some western countries.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a couple of paradigm shifts needed. In mainland China, people value outcome legitimacy rather than procedural legitimacy and freedom of speech. In other words: they care whether the government actually does a good job, rather than whether the procedure through which the government was selected is correct, or whether they could criticize Xi. How would the government get feedback then if people aren't allowed…

> The government monitors social media as well for grievances. I personally know people whose parents were stupid enough to go for such "anonymous grievance boxes" just to get a knock on the door from district committee enforcers the next day. You don't seem to know anything about modern China if you don't even know that. > After all, 2 generations ago the Chinese were dirt-poor. When I was born, food rationing still…

Please don't cross into nationalistic flamewar. I respect and am grateful for how much your HN comments have improved over the years, in terms of sticking to the intended use of the site. And I'm aware that you know a lot about these topics. But your posts in this thread are sliding back into the sort of pattern we're trying to avoid here. Please go the other way.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but China still bad' narrative. And it is bad. The country run by a freaking communist party, if somebody didn't notice. And we are not even mentioning gulag, and hookers. > In contrast to China's reputation here in the west, the govt actually DOES listen to criticism. Because it is afraid of it? > The key is to be constructive, and to criticize policy rat…

Look, if you don't believe me, at least believe in Kishore Mahbubani, ex-Singapore diplomat and ex-UN Security Council head. He's spoken extensively about this in his book "Has China Won?" and can corroborate what I said. In the past 40 years, the freedoms of Chinese people have exploded. People could not choose what to wear, where to work, what to eat, where to live. Now they can. Millions travel world-wide every ye…

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Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone who is living in China, citizen or expat Neither myself, nor Cyrus Janssen, are currently living in China. This is my genuine opinion, believe it or not. Nobody forces me, nobody pays me. I thought people are supposed to be "against the CCP but support the Chinese people". Is your support limited to Chinese people who are against the CCP? Why do you not reflect for a while on why someone like me, who has gro…

Just a note — there is basically zero chance that Jeff Bezos would face any sort of governmental action if he "pissed off a guy in a government department," however influential that person may be. AWS just blocked Parler, and I'm sure our current president — arguably the most powerful man on Earth (until tomorrow) — was not very happy with that. We don't see Jeff Bezos in hiding for doing that, nor would he have to g…

Well, I'd just have to respectfully disagree then. As someone who runs my own company, I know better than to pick a quarrel with my customers, even if I don't agree with those customers on a political or whatever level.

It's not at all strange to have multiple factions in an organizations who are after multiple vendors, as tool for an internal power war. Maybe if I piss off the guy who chose me as vendor, then his rivals will use that fact against him.

My point is, social relations are complex. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequence.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone who is living in China, citizen or expat Neither myself, nor Cyrus Janssen, are currently living in China. This is my genuine opinion, believe it or not. Nobody forces me, nobody pays me. I thought people are supposed to be "against the CCP but support the Chinese people". Is your support limited to Chinese people who are against the CCP? Why do you not reflect for a while on why someone like me, who has gro…

> And no, you don't go to jail for not toeing the party line. That's not how it works. No you don’t. But you might find your work visa renewal denied. Things can get inconvenient really quickly, as a foreigner you don’t want to be a grass mud horse while in China, river crab is the only way to go. > If you're Jeff Bezos and you piss off the guy in a government department... Then Jeff Bezos sues the government, which…

> No you don’t. But you might find your work visa renewal denied.

Daniel Dumbrill, a vlogger in China, literally criticized the Guangzhou government for its negligent behavior against African workers. I did the same. We did this more than a year ago and we're both still fine.

> Then Jeff Bezos sues the government, which is exactly what happened.

You missed the point. You can't sue the government into continuing to do business with you.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much more mental gymnastics do we need? I think it's time to accept that he WASN'T jailed rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but China still bad' narrative. The HN commentary went from 'Jack Ma is a national security threat' to 'Jack Ma is a poor victim of the CCP will will never be seen again' to 'this is fake, he is still jailed'. If he shows up someone else in person next time, will pe…

I'm not sure if, or how, one should engage with an apologist for a tiranical, genocidal, dictatorial regime.

I'll tell you how: by being open to the notion that maybe "tiranical, genocidal and dictatorial" are false. And that Chinese people have different values, which are equally valid, but that are nevertheless not forced upon you.

If you actually want to discuss this, I'd be happy to. But I need to know whether you are genuine, or whether you merely mean to diss me.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#168

> In the 50-second video, Ma, dressed in a navy pullover, spoke directly to the camera from a room with grey marble walls and a striped carpet. It was not clear from the video or the Tianmu News article where he was speaking from. Uh, resurfacing from a fancy prison cell, perhaps? Can anyone find the video? EDIT: Here's the raw video: https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/13517514568277196... . If you watch his…

How much more mental gymnastics do we need? I think it's time to accept that he WASN'T jailed rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but China still bad' narrative. The HN commentary went from 'Jack Ma is a national security threat' to 'Jack Ma is a poor victim of the CCP will will never be seen again' to 'this is fake, he is still jailed'. If he shows up someone else in person next time, will pe…

For all I know most things I know about China could be wrong - I'm certain that a lot of it is (seeing our media uncritically reporting the Adrian Zenz stuff has been mindblowing), but how could I possibly know whether something is true when there is so much disinfo going around? Like, what gives you the confidence that you're not just being fed propaganda yourself?

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find your comments interesting because I've lived in Amsterdam for a significant period of time (as well as Switzerland, Germany, and Denmark), and I've intersected with a lot of people who probably have very similar life stories to you! I think the crowd I interact with is probably somewhat different though, because they're mostly crypto/blockchain people. While I have encountered a fair number of expats who moved…

The thing is, I don't even consider myself particularly pro-CCP. But CCP is the only party that actually advances the interests of Chinese civilization. All the other parties only care about destroying CCP, no matter the negative consequences to Chinese society. Also, half of the reasons people use to oppose the CCP, are either false, or based on twisted half-truths. When I see such unwarranted attacks, how can I not…

That's an interesting insight — that the CCP is perhaps the best choice of many bad choices (the "lesser evil" as we say in the US). I do understand your perspective, but I respectfully disagree (though I do admit I don't know that much about how China really works).

Of course, China is a developed economy, and there is a lot of really impressive and legitimate industry in China. The hardware markets of Shenzen, the startups in Shanghai, the generally better-educated (than the US) populous. I want to make it clear that I don't hold a cartoonish "China bad" view, and I definitely don't see Chinese people as bad people — I have a lot of them as friends — nor even every member of the CCP as a bad person.

But I think these "attacks" of China aren't that unwarranted. There is something really foul afoot in China, moreso than the US. Perhaps, if the US didn't have such a strong constitution and democratic backing, it would be doing worse things than China. But it isn't, and that's because of the setup of the US government.

The things that really bother me about China are:

1. The invasion of Tibet (everyone seems to have forgotten about this)

2. The Uighur Genocide

3. Well-documented organ harvesting of political dissident groups like Falun Gong

4. The draconian social-credit system

5. The Great Firewall

6. Parts of the "Belt and Road" initiative, particularly landgrabs from poor African farmers

There is very good evidence for each of these points, and the West doesn't have problems like this.

I do see that the US has a lot wrong with it. I also see that Germany and Europe has a lot wrong with it. I also know that media perceptions are often wrong — I'm half German and hold German citizenship, so I know how strange it is to fly between countries and see how distorted media perceptions are on either end.

But China in its current incarnation is, to me, dangerous and scary, and also very promising. I hope we can patch up the past, but we can't do that by being blind to it.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point, but his speech also seems forced, and the location is quite strange. If Bezos or Gates were to give an address like this, they'd have a great camera setup in their fancy home office with good lighting. For reference, take a look at Gates appearing on the Daily Show: https://youtube.com/watch?v=iyFT8qXcOrM . Ma looks the opposite here.

At this point you're just applying your cultural bias.

It's about the status of people in the video and the general expectation of public of how they usually presented themselves. People of this caliber usually comes up with carefully craft image, along with good production. It's the same no matter where you live or born.

The Bezos and Gates example is just that, and example of famous people that we familiar with and that's it.

Chill man. Not everything is about race.

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