Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook • Hacker News Board

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#511

Post by jacquesm » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:12 AM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #435

vkou wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The violence and property damage wasn't the problem. Democracies can survive some broken windows, stolen laptops, and yes, even people getting hurt and killed at a protest. This sort of thing has happened for decades and centuries. What they can't survive is groups of thugs that don't like the result of an election, and go off to physically prevent its results from being honored. That is unprecedented.

> What they can't survive is... And yet, here we are, democracy intact.

There was an excellent article by someone from a place where a failed coup led to a real one a couple of years hence. Democracy is not 'intact', it is now damaged, and whether or not manage to repair it remains to be seen.

The most dangerous thing you can do now is to think this is behind you and from here on in everything is normal. It isn't and it probably won't be for some time. If you manage the next two transfers of power at the end of election cycles without further mishap I'd say that you can say democracy is intact. Until then all bets are off.

Edit: I wished I could locate the article, so far no luck.

edit2: finally found it in my history, this article was from 11 November 2020, and very prescient:

https://indica.medium.com/i-lived-through-a-coup-america-is-...

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#512

Post by wutbrodo » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:12 AM UTC

throwaway9980 wrote: post #378

wutbrodo wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean this unkindly, but your information diet has incredibly serious problems if you haven't come across any legitimate criticisms of the BLM org in the past. As someone whose pet issue has been police and justice system violence for a really, really long time, I really wish BLM wasn't the organization/movement representing this particular struggle[1]. The 2020 iteration is a little more connected to reality…

This is such a spot on comment. I think the trouble is that you can’t pick the way that opposition to very bad things finds it’s moment. We have had decades of horrible abuses and creeping police state totalitarianism. It affects everyone . It permeates life everywhere . I wish the current zeitgeist around changing that was less identitarian, but I will take what I can get and happily support it.

Yes, I agree, and tried to capture this sentiment in my edit. It's easy to sit in an ivory tower and sniff about how the masses don't agree with you, and it's much harder to find an intersection point that fires up the masses while also doing some good. The latter is how change actually happens, so I give a lot of leeway to activist or policy groups when it comes to not having perfect policy goals.

BLM 2015 didn't quite meet this tradeoff, and was in some cases explicitly against race-blind solutions to police violence and in favor of pseudoscience like IATs (at which point their detachment from reality points them in the opposite direction from managing to do good). BLM 2020 is pretty different in character, and while it still has its stupidities, I reckon that it's a decent enough direction that it may lead to some positive change.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#513

Post by tomcam » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:13 AM UTC

qppo wrote: post #432

abvdasker wrote: post #316

What is the purpose of the NSA and FBI if they can’t prevent something this obvious? Wasn’t the supposed bargain that nearly unlimited surveillance of Americans would prevent terrorism? What should be done with agencies incapable of fulfilling their most basic functions?

Why do you think they had an incentive to prevent it? The President was the one encouraging the insurrection!

By explicitly telling people to “be peaceful“?

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#514

Post by wutbrodo » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:14 AM UTC

unanswered wrote: post #441

wutbrodo wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean this unkindly, but your information diet has incredibly serious problems if you haven't come across any legitimate criticisms of the BLM org in the past. As someone whose pet issue has been police and justice system violence for a really, really long time, I really wish BLM wasn't the organization/movement representing this particular struggle[1]. The 2020 iteration is a little more connected to reality…

If BLM isn't the face of the justice reform movement, then why is the capitol riot the face of the "the election was stolen" movement?

I do not follow the connection to my comment. Could you elaborate?

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#515

Post by tomcam » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:14 AM UTC

bananabreakfast wrote: post #71

beefee wrote: post #45

It's chilling how quickly the tech industry has coalesced around oppressive and biased social media censorship policies. A scant few years ago, the tech industry was a beacon of free expression.

It's chilling how quickly radical terrorist groups have coalesced around using social media to coordinate their hatred and their attacks. A scant few years ago, America actively fought terrorists instead of encouraging and facilitating them.

No they didn’t. Look at the damage done to Seattle and Portland with the full cooperation of Twitter and Facebook.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#516

Post by konjin » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:14 AM UTC

beefee wrote: post #45

It's chilling how quickly the tech industry has coalesced around oppressive and biased social media censorship policies. A scant few years ago, the tech industry was a beacon of free expression.

>A scant few years ago, the tech industry was a beacon of free expression.

It wasn't. Not since the 00s and at that point social media was small enough that rooting for the underdog was rooting for themselves.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#517

Post by cheeze » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:15 AM UTC

zarkov99 wrote: post #338

jjoonathan wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand we have hooligans using a crowd as cover to get away with property damage. On the other we have hooligans organized for the express purpose of overturning the results of a democratic election. In the case of BLM, the crimes don't reflect on the movement's overall purpose. Nobody expects property damage to be a vehicle for police reform -- it's an argument for more police presence, if anything. In the case…

What would you call the Capital Hill Autonomous Zone if not an attempt at insurrection? Come on, can we have some intellectual honesty here? Both situations sucked, the people involved sucked, their reasoning sucked and they should all go to jail so that sane people can get back to their lives in peace. We are being forced into building absurd logical houses of cards just so we do not concede an inch to the other sid…

Most folks that I know in Seattle didn't think that CHOP/CHAZ was a good thing, and one of their leaders Raz Simone was heavily criticized for being... well, dumb to put it lightly.

It's okay to criticize both things here. CHOP/CHAZ was clearly wrong, as is throwing a molotov at a police officer. No question about that. The capitol was wrong as well.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#518

Post by tomcam » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:15 AM UTC

bananabreakfast wrote: post #118

eplanit wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you referring to Antifa and BLM, who also organized on FB and Twitter during 2020, too?

You mean the fictitious boogeyman "group" that not one member has ever been identified and the movement for black rights that was widely brutalized by the police? I suppose not, seeing as one is a fantasy and the other clearly had the police paying attention to their plans. Besides, neither has attempted a coup to overturn an election so it's not really the same is it?

How is it that this fictitious bogeyman group has managed to take over portions of Seattle, get two people killed in Seattle, and spend months burning down neighborhoods in Seattle and Portland?

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#519

Post by imgabe » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:16 AM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #227

pokstad wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? How did past revolutions and terrorist attacks get organized? You realize most of world history existed before the Internet, right?

> Really? How did past revolutions and terrorist attacks get organized? You realize most of world history existed before the Internet, right? Yeah, of course. Broadcasting means one-to-many communication. Before modern technology, those things were organized using other kinds of one-to-many communication, such as in-person meetings, rallies, and through newspapers and other kinds of publications. Movements aren't org…

Phone trees are a well known and used method to broadcast information via the phone system.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#520

Post by matwood » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 1:16 AM UTC

seneca wrote: post #422

matwood wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and your group is not making every effort to expel associations with said nazis This was the most bothersome part to me. Trump talked about wanting to punch protestors, but tip-toed around actual Nazi's supporting him and coming to events. He would eventually denounce violence or hate after being prodded, but never seemed to be able to state plainly if someone is a Nazi, then GTFO. Personally, if I'm in a group and…

> never seemed to be able to state plainly if someone is a Nazi, then GTFO. > Trump, Aug. 14, 2017: As I said on Saturday, we condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry, and violence. It has no place in America. And as I have said many times before: No matter the color of our skin... we must love each other, show affection for each other, and unite together in condemnation of ha…

I’ve read that, yet he kept on walking the line. His initial statements always seemed to need clarification later. As I said, he always managed to denounce later after prodding.

From the summer: https://www.snopes.com/ap/2020/06/28/trump-tweets-video-with...

And this: https://www.npr.org/2020/06/18/880377872/facebook-removes-tr...

And then stuff like this: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-condemn-white-suprem...

When asked to condemn “white supremacists and right-wing militia groups,” Trump verbally articulated a willingness to do so (“Sure, I’m willing to do that”), but also prevaricated, delayed, and bristled at the request, for example asking “Who do you want me to condemn?” when the terms of the request had already been made clear, and saying “Give me a name, go ahead.” He also swiftly shifted focus from white supremacists (the subject of the moderator’s question to him) to a condemnation of “the left wing.”

While it can be argued that Trump did not unequivocally refuse to condemn white supremacists, he undoubtedly demonstrated a reluctance to do so, one that will be very worrying to many voters. When Trump ultimately got around to issuing his version of the condemnation requested by Wallace and Biden, it was shrouded in ambiguity (“Proud Boys? Stand back and stand by”) and followed by another rapid shift in focus to “antifa and the Left.” Whatever Trump did say, he did not condemn white supremacists.

Unfortunately, because of the pandemic I’ve probably watched, read, and listened to more Trump than his supporters. The only echo chamber I’m in is his own material. His hesitancy around the white supremacist topic has always been alarming.