Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook • Hacker News Board

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#421

Post by nostromo » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 12:10 AM UTC

whoknew1122 wrote: post #266

alwaysdoit wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's weird that the discussion has centered around censorship, rather than like... why didn't law enforcement shut this down sooner? Or at least properly prepare for it?

Far-right terrorism in the US has never really been taken seriously. No one took them seriously. Until the Capitol was attacked. The Feds are starting to roll up high ranking militia members, so hopefully they learned their lesson this time.

The rush to call the storming of the capitol terrorism is really misplaced.

By adopting words like "terrorism" you're paving the way for an overreaching response from lawmakers and law enforcement -- something that will likely end up being used against a cause you might support, like BLM.

Firstly, nobody was terrorized. No, this wasn't "our 9/11." I doubt it'll even be a topic of conversation in a few years, just like we don't talk about 1983 United States Senate bombing today at all.

I have no doubt a few of the rioters really were planning terrible deeds and they should be prosecuted; the violence and property damage is inexcusable. But most of these people just seem to be caught up in the moment -- taking selfies and LARPing around the capitol after hours.

What we need right now is de-escalation.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#422

Post by seneca » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 12:10 AM UTC

matwood wrote: post #406

klmadfejno wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Golly it's just so hard to know who to trust. The crowds protesting racial injustice and police brutality? Or the literal, self identifying nazis, white supremacists, and cultish conspiracy theorists trying to kill political leaders. Alas our moral non cognizance in a post modern perspective. edit: to the below, really, no. There's no hyperbole. If your group features nazis, and your group is not making every effort…

> and your group is not making every effort to expel associations with said nazis This was the most bothersome part to me. Trump talked about wanting to punch protestors, but tip-toed around actual Nazi's supporting him and coming to events. He would eventually denounce violence or hate after being prodded, but never seemed to be able to state plainly if someone is a Nazi, then GTFO. Personally, if I'm in a group and…

> never seemed to be able to state plainly if someone is a Nazi, then GTFO.

> Trump, Aug. 14, 2017: As I said on Saturday, we condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry, and violence. It has no place in America. And as I have said many times before: No matter the color of our skin... we must love each other, show affection for each other, and unite together in condemnation of hatred, bigotry, and violence... Racism is evil. And those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/trump-has-condemned-white-...

Donald Trump has many qualities worth criticizing. You should do some basic research to make sure you're repeating real ones and not just nonsense from an echo chamber.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#423

Post by patcon » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 12:11 AM UTC

zyxzevn wrote: post #323

stretchcat wrote: post #78

It was planned for months, openly on Facebook in plain view of everybody. Remember that when politicians call for more intrusive surveillance in response.

What was planned? The peaceful demonstration with the friendly supporters that saw positivity in Trump? People that listened to Trump literally to gather Peaceful and protest against the steal of the election? Or the small group of Q supporters that were believing that some people in the government were working against corruption? Or the small group that was violent at one side, and was mixed with some rioters with a…

> Like the CNN journalist who encouraged people to break into the building.

False https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-9906367046

Presumably your hot-take understanding comes from your "neutral" sources...

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#424

Post by _-david-_ » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 12:11 AM UTC

chillingeffect wrote: post #298

_-david-_ wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple cops were killed by blm rioters. Sure they weren't capital police but they were still police. ACAB was all over Facebook and Twitter which at a minimum raised the temperature and hatred towards cops.

It's also easy to look at the summer's riots and forget that it was a mixture of peaceful protestors and violent antagonists. Until we have some convictions with evidence in court, we can't say BLM'ers killed cops. and to your 2nd point, I don't think it was ppl saying ACAB that raised the temperature and hatred towards cops. It was the cops killing innocent black people.

Some of the black people who were shot by cops were in all likelihood not innocent. Look at Jacob Blake for example. He came at the cops with a knife. Blake did survive though.

Just because one event raises the temperature doesn't mean another event also doesn't. Saying ACAB and defund the police seems like it would also raise the temperature.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#425

Post by vkou » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 12:12 AM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #421

whoknew1122 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Far-right terrorism in the US has never really been taken seriously. No one took them seriously. Until the Capitol was attacked. The Feds are starting to roll up high ranking militia members, so hopefully they learned their lesson this time.

The rush to call the storming of the capitol terrorism is really misplaced. By adopting words like "terrorism" you're paving the way for an overreaching response from lawmakers and law enforcement -- something that will likely end up being used against a cause you might support, like BLM. Firstly, nobody was terrorized. No, this wasn't "our 9/11." I doubt it'll even be a topic of conversation in a few years, just lik…

The violence and property damage wasn't the problem. Democracies can survive some broken windows, stolen laptops, and yes, even people getting hurt and killed at a protest. This sort of thing has happened for decades and centuries.

What they can't survive is groups of thugs that don't like the result of an election, and go off to physically prevent its results from being honored. That is unprecedented.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#426

Post by CobrastanJorji » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 12:13 AM UTC

zarkov99 wrote: post #312

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parler explicitly advertises itself as a place of little or no moderation. Facebook has something like 15,000 professional content moderators whose job is so terrible that they literally get PTSD, but Facebook still fails to catch a lot of it. Being not great at moderation and actively advertising yourself as an unmoderated forum are fairly different lines.

Can you substantiate that a little? Parler promoted itself as a champion of free speech which is not the same as saying "little to no moderation". They did have a moderation system in place. I do not know how many users they have per reviewer, do you?

Parler's slogan was "the world's premier free speech platform." They had no automated content scanning. They reportedly employed no moderators. According to Amazon's response to Parler's lawsuit, Amazon had spent almost two months repeatedly on calls for them asking them to take down several hundred specifically listed messages with death threats and such, which Parler simply declined to do.

Parler reportedly had a community "jury pool" system in which Parler users could volunteer to review reports for bad content and could decide whether to leave the messages up or not.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#427

Post by eganist » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 12:13 AM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #421

whoknew1122 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Far-right terrorism in the US has never really been taken seriously. No one took them seriously. Until the Capitol was attacked. The Feds are starting to roll up high ranking militia members, so hopefully they learned their lesson this time.

The rush to call the storming of the capitol terrorism is really misplaced. By adopting words like "terrorism" you're paving the way for an overreaching response from lawmakers and law enforcement -- something that will likely end up being used against a cause you might support, like BLM. Firstly, nobody was terrorized. No, this wasn't "our 9/11." I doubt it'll even be a topic of conversation in a few years, just lik…

> Firstly, nobody was terrorized.

I can count six DC-area thousand+ employee firms that provided grief counseling in response. And as a reminder, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism - even if a subset of people implemented violence with political ends in mind (breaking in, beating innocent people, attempting to take hostages, all in the name of overturning a legitimate election), at the very least, that subset meets the precise definition of "terrorists."

> No, this wasn't "our 9/11."

The Capitol was breached as part of a coordinated and failed plot. Last time this happened was 1814.

> I have no doubt a few of the rioters really were planning terrible deeds, and the violence and property damage is inexcusable.

Yes, using the rest of the people in the crowd as human shields, but nonetheless:

> But most of these people just seem to be caught up in the moment -- taking selfies and LARPing around the capitol after hours.

This isn't a valid defense to any crime literally ever.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#428

Post by zaroth » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 12:14 AM UTC

baggachipz wrote: post #188

eplanit wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you referring to Antifa and BLM, who also organized on FB and Twitter during 2020, too?

Oh right, I forgot about the part where "Antifa" or the BLM protests ended in them infiltrating the United States Capitol, killing guards with fire extinguishers and american flags, stole laptops from members of congress and attempted to sell them to Russia, and were wearing literal Nazi propaganda and claiming a revolution.

An angry mob surrounded the White House and tried to burn down the Church of the Presidents on May 31, 2020.

Trump had to shelter in the bunker, but he was just a coward, and the people were just demanding justice.

> Then came darkness, and with it, another night of mayhem. In the park, protesters faced the familiar pop, pop, pop of pepper bullets and stinging clouds of tear gas meant to push back hundreds of them as they tried, again and again, to break through the police barricades set up around President Trump’s home.

> Later, American flags and parked cars and buildings were lit ablaze — including St. John’s Church, a historic landmark opened in 1816 and attended by every president since James Madison. Firefighters quickly extinguished the basement fire, which police said was intentionally set.

Protesters then, as on Jan 6th, tried to entice officers to take their side;

> A black officer, according to witnesses, briefly took a knee in solidarity with the protesters, who cheered.

> Not long after, another officer made an announcement on a megaphone: “Attention: We will continue to move back unless you break the police line.”

> And again, cheering from the protesters, many of whom appeared to want the officers to join them rather than fight with them.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/31/fires-light-...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/31/us/politics/washington-dc...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-braces-for-third-day...

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#429

Post by qppo » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 12:14 AM UTC

stretchcat wrote: post #78

It was planned for months, openly on Facebook in plain view of everybody. Remember that when politicians call for more intrusive surveillance in response.

I haven't seen these calls for surveillance. I have seen calls for sedition charges against the politicians that encouraged it and law enforcement that ignored the evidence of coming insurrection.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#430

Post by KorematsuFred » Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 12:15 AM UTC

stretchcat wrote: post #78

It was planned for months, openly on Facebook in plain view of everybody. Remember that when politicians call for more intrusive surveillance in response.

To be honest FBI did see this and they did work to counter it but the Administration did not take their warning seriously. Donald Trump refused to deploy National Guard and Pence had to do it even though Pence did not have the authority. You can't blame the tail of snake of the venom in its head.

There is plenty of evidence that the GREAT LEADER tried to overturn elections. If the Congress fails to impeach him it would imply the Congress is not a strong and relevant institution anymore and what the GREAT LEADER failed at someone else would succeed in future. Also, no point blaming FBI here as they were merely pen pushers, their bosses and Congress from which derive legitimacy are far more incompetent and responsible for this mess.

Cato Institute (Libertarian/Conservative think tank) analyst David Bier has a timeline here. The Great Leader Supreme had called for this rally in early December and had since used violent language asking folks to move to DC on December 6th.

https://twitter.com/David_J_Bier/status/1351552702032056328?...

Here are some quotable quotes.

> 12/19: Trump announces the Jan. 6th event by tweeting, “Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!” Immediately, insurrectionists begin to discuss the “Wild Protest.” Just 2 days later, this UK political analyst predicts the violence

> On Dec. 29, the FBI sends out a nationwide bulletin warning legislatures about attacks

> 1/1: Trump tweets the time of his protest. Then he retweets “The calvary is coming” on Jan. 6!” Sounds like a war? About this time, the FBI begins visiting right wing extremists to tell them not to go--does the FBI tell the president?

>1/5: Trump tweets at various law enforcement, intelligence, and military agencies that he supposedly oversees about the threat from “Antifa.” At the same time, a VA FBI Office warns of a “war” at the Capitol from the far right starting the next day.

> 1/6, 12:00-12:17pm: Trump begins his speech. At 12:17, he says that he will march with the rioters to the Capitol to demand the election be overturned.

> "After this, we’re going to walk down and I’ll be there with you. We’re going to walk down. We’re going to walk down any one you want, but I think right here. We’re going walk down to the Capitol" - Donald J. Trump - Jan 6 2021

> "We are going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue and we're going to the Capitol and we're going to try and give weak Republicans the pride and boldness that they need to take back our country... So let's walk down Pennsylvania Ave" https://youtu.be/ipTSkxiToDE