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Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

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Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#381

Post by pradn »

smsm42 wrote: post #257

That is the most depressing part for me - how easily American society is scared into giving up their freedom ideals. Turns out they don't have to be threatened with overwhelming force. They don't need to be threatened with death, starvation or torture. They don't need to be threatened by economic ruin or untold suffering. No, the richest and most safe civilization ever existed on the face of the planet is ready to gi…

A few things to note:

1) The American conception of free-speech absolutism is unique and an extreme point compared to the rest of the world. For example, Germany forbids Nazi symbols and India forbids speech that may rile up religious/communal violence and Britain has stronger libel laws than in the US. These are codified in the laws of these countries. Even in the US, there has always been a tension between the absolutist wording of the First Amendment, the law as interpreted by federal and state courts, and ground-reality enforcement. It's hard to argue against some restrictions on free speech - most everyone agrees you shouldn't be able to say "fire" in a crowded theater. And practically-speaking, the speech of leftists and Black civil rights agitators has been policed, literally. We've been able to forget the "paradox of tolerance" since we haven't been in a "post-truth" society until recently (for a sizable segment of the population anyway.) But now, we're having to deal with that issue. The questions have lurked beneath the surface.

2) The conception of individual rights is an Enlightenment idea. There are other ways to base a society - for example, starting from justice as the primary concern instead of rights, or starting from proper conduct according to some religious authority. Of course, we in America are heavily biased toward the Enlightenment approach to founding a political order. In a multi-valent world, we are having to confront these other political philosophies. So, I'd urge you to look at the "rights" discourse from other angles from the one that's "authorized" by the founders. In a way, little holds together America except the repeated affirmation that we are Americans and that we believe in the sacred principles of the Constitution. This, of course, makes it hard to question these fundamentals.

So, in summary, I'm trying to note that American free-speech values exist in a continuum and are historically contingent. They aren't fixed, and we might move to alternate interpretations and approaches over time.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#382

Post by sergiomattei »

trident5000 wrote: post #270
pbourke wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The status quo has brought us to today. The platforms only act when they see that the political winds have shifted. There were precisely zero “profiles in courage” among the platforms until after the election. We can expect nothing more - they’re businesses beholden to investors and regulators above all else.

I'm surprised at the lack of recognition that Google and Apple banned Parler as soon as the dems gained all 3 branches of power. It could not be more clear what the motive was. Extremism and violence are on Twitter and Facebook all day long. They're still in the app stores.

Could it be because, I don't know, extremists seized the Capitol that same day?

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#383

Post by compiler-guy »

fastball wrote: post #334
joshuamorton wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, I'm amazed by how easily people are handwaving away what was a hairs breath from the murder and kidnapping of multiple elected officials, not to mention constitutional crisis/breakdown. > TV and Twitter that told them there was an "insurrection" It meets the definition though. There seems to be a lack of willingness to acknowledge an attempted coup as a coup, or a failed insurrection as an insurrec…

Which elected officials were a hairs breath from being murdered, exactly? Seems like mostly just Mike Pence. Who was apparently (if you believe the angry mobs chants) going to be hung by the same people that elected him. Not exactly what I normally think of when I hear "coup" or "violent insurrection". And at the same time, how different is that from people on the other end of the spectrum erecting a guillotine outsi…

Both things are reprehensible, but one of them is an attempt on our very democracy. That makes it way worse.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#384

Post by ceejayoz »

mistermann wrote: post #358
stolen_biscuit wrote: post #330

A portion of your citizens were called to storm your nations capital by a President who refuses to accept the results of a democratic election. The very foundation of your democracy has been eroded. Do not pretend the people who are frightened of these actions are overreacting. Democracy is a fragile thing, and you have a portion of your population who attempted to take a hammer to it. Don't pretend this is a narrati…

Can you articulate a plausible (does not rely on significant speculation or hypotheticals) series of events at the Capitol incident that could have resulted in democracy being legitimately lost in America? I am unable to come up with one.

People were similarly dismissive of the Nazis after the Beer Hall Putsch.

Aside: Asking for a hypothetical that doesn’t involve hypotheticals seems… off.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#385

Post by wbsss4412 »

smsm42 wrote: post #257

That is the most depressing part for me - how easily American society is scared into giving up their freedom ideals. Turns out they don't have to be threatened with overwhelming force. They don't need to be threatened with death, starvation or torture. They don't need to be threatened by economic ruin or untold suffering. No, the richest and most safe civilization ever existed on the face of the planet is ready to gi…

It’s quite flippant of you to assert that people who are interpreting a set of facts contrary to your own interpretation, are doing so because they were “told” to by CNN.

There’s plenty of evidence out there for people to make the case that the label of “insurrection” is appropriate. For some reason right wingers (not asserting this is you, I don’t know your affiliation) seem to have an obsession with “sheeple” and can’t comprehend how someone can have a contrary opinion, other than it being due to pure propaganda.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#386

Post by trident5000 »

compiler-guy wrote: post #374
trident5000 wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bunch of rednecks who broke into a building after a protest event ended, stayed between the red velvet ropes once inside, and left hours after being told to do so with no shots fired at security. Id hardly call that much of an insurrection attempt. "but they had zip ties" there has never been a gov overthrow fought by some guy who brought zip ties.

They smeared feces, stole laptops, broke windows, killed a police officer and got one of their own killed. People with bullhorns directed their fellows to the next target. It was an insurrection attempt by incompetents and LARPers, but absolutely an insurrection attempt.

It was idiot rioters just like we had over the summer. Not some well planned out attempt to actually overthrow the govt. It was a disrespectful day and they did accomplish that.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#387

Post by compiler-guy »

babesh wrote: post #321
anonymousDan wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, lies and propaganda only have to win once.

Nope. As long as there is potential for other powers to grow or counteract it, you have a chance to course correct. Isn’t that what a vote is good for?

A vote isn’t good for anything if violent extremists can overturn an election.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#388

Post by geofft »

smsm42 wrote: post #257

That is the most depressing part for me - how easily American society is scared into giving up their freedom ideals. Turns out they don't have to be threatened with overwhelming force. They don't need to be threatened with death, starvation or torture. They don't need to be threatened by economic ruin or untold suffering. No, the richest and most safe civilization ever existed on the face of the planet is ready to gi…

I don't object to free speech because I'm scared and I want the government and the media to protect me from the scary people I see on TV. I object to freedom of speech because it doesn't still seem like an ideal to me in the first place. Don't attack a straw man.

What is the argument that free speech is an ideal? That it promotes a more vibrant discourse? That it permits political positions that the powerful dislike to be communicated? That we can drive out bad speech with more speech? That the court of public opinion decides well? That it ensures everyone can participate in matters of public debate?

Has it done so? Again, I'm not talking about the insurrection at all, so let's set aside the debate over whether your comments about it are factual. Look at the last several decades. Do you think that the social norm - the ideal - of freedom of speech has improved our society? Can you concretely describe an example?

I believe in the right to freedom of speech as a limitation on government power. I don't want the government throwing anyone in prison for what they said. I don't believe in it as an ideal, as an aspiration for either individual communities or our society as a whole.

Or, bluntly: Do you believe HN would be a better community without downvotes and moderation?

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#389

Post by skissane »

lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

> But we've now done the experiment in a big way and the results seem overwhelmingly negative to me, to the point where they present a credible existential threat to civilization, on a par with climate change.

A lot of these issues seem largely peculiar to the US. Trumpism, birtherism, Pizzagate, "Stop the steal", QAnon, etc – all movements originating in the US, focused on US-specific political issues, and with most of their followers in the US. Other first world countries don't seem to have this issue to anywhere near the same extent.

And that's why I don't think it is "a credible existential threat to civilization, on a par with climate change". A credible existential threat to the future existence of the United States maybe, but the US != civilisation. The US could all magically disappear tomorrow, and human civilisation would survive. It would be a setback, no doubt, because the US makes an important contribution to the global economy, but nothing the world couldn't recover from.

And, the realistic worst case scenario isn't the US magically disappearing. The realistic worst case scenario is that Americans get worse and worse at co-existing with each other to the point that the idea of breaking up the US becomes mainstream, and then it maybe actually happens. If that came to pass, it would be the end of America as we've known it, but it wouldn't be the end of human civilisation.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#390

Post by joshuamorton »

fastball wrote: post #334
joshuamorton wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, I'm amazed by how easily people are handwaving away what was a hairs breath from the murder and kidnapping of multiple elected officials, not to mention constitutional crisis/breakdown. > TV and Twitter that told them there was an "insurrection" It meets the definition though. There seems to be a lack of willingness to acknowledge an attempted coup as a coup, or a failed insurrection as an insurrec…

Which elected officials were a hairs breath from being murdered, exactly? Seems like mostly just Mike Pence. Who was apparently (if you believe the angry mobs chants) going to be hung by the same people that elected him. Not exactly what I normally think of when I hear "coup" or "violent insurrection". And at the same time, how different is that from people on the other end of the spectrum erecting a guillotine outsi…

> going to be hung by the same people that elected him. Not exactly what I normally think of when I hear "coup" or "violent insurrection".

Right, because he violated the trumpian cult of personality. How is that not scarier: murder someone unless he violated his oath to the constitution in order to keep an authoritarian leaning election-losing person in power.

Killing government officials to result in a transfer of power. It's a sudden, violent, illegal seizure of government power. That's a coup.

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