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Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

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Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#281

Post by edbob »

alwayseasy wrote: post #243
edbob wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Historically, Americans have succeeded at destroying ideologies by grossly impeding on free speech and other constitutional rights when there was political will. What is the history here?

Native American autonomy and agency, African Americans obtaining land after the Civil War or stimulus measures after the Great Depression, Communism... Of course, the combination of limiting free speech for decades leads to the death of the ideology because no one picks it up.

> Native American autonomy and agency, African Americans obtaining land after the Civil War

Unfortunately these were suppressed with violence, far more than mere censorship. I don't think these causes are dead at all, however. Many Native Americans still pursue these goals and occasionally enjoy victories, while the other cause has changed with the times and shifted focus from land to a more vague idea of reparations.

> stimulus measures after the Great Depression, Communism

I don't think those are dead at all. They may not be especially popular among normal people, but one can certainly get elected and openly preach violent revolutionary ideology like "We are coming to dismantle this deeply oppressive, racist, sexist, violent, utterly bankrupt system of capitalism, this police state. We cannot and will not stop until we overthrow it and replace it with a world based instead on solidarity, genuine democracy, and equality – a socialist world." [0] The organizers of BLM have explicitly stated that they are "trained organizers, trained Marxists" in the context of BLM's having adequate ideological direction. [1][2]

[0] https://www.socialistalternative.org/2020/07/07/kshama-sawan... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDqObO44e9s [2] https://therealnews.com/pcullors0722blacklives

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#282

Post by ogre_codes »

erichocean wrote: post #263
ogre_codes wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite the opposite. Everything Amazon did was within the terms of their contract. Amazon could have terminated the agreement sooner. Since Amazon waited until after it was abundantly clear that harmful content was being posted on Parler, its going to be quite difficult for Parler to find much sympathy in any court.

> Everything Amazon did was within the terms of their contract. Everything except for 30 days notice. Oops.

Amazon gave them 7 weeks notice that they were violating the contract.

Once Parler breeched the contract, Amazon no longer had an obligation to them. The fact that they continued operating without making significant efforts to get into compliance makes it pretty unlikely the court will be sympathetic.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#283

Post by ukd1 »

sojournerc wrote: post #198
amanaplanacanal wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I think the legal status quo is pretty close to ideal: governments may not limit speech, but platforms can clamp down on anything they want. The only problem with the platforms is that they still somewhat cling to the idea that they won’t censor speech, which is frankly ridiculous. Of course they will censor, they should just admit it and clamp down any speech they find abhorrent. Allow the marketplace (and…

What about DNS? ISP? There must be some line. Sure you can build your own server and connect it to the internet, but if you're handing out cards with an IP address, marketability is limited.

1.1.1.1 disagrees with you, but that's an aside.

ISPs get common-carrier status - I think platforms should be able to have this protection and requirements too, if they want it. For ISPs this protects them from things folks do with their service, meaning they don't have to completely monitor your use.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#284

Post by heimatau »

anonymousDan wrote: post #262
cortesoft wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But this is also the beauty of free expression - it prevents anyone from using it to enact total control. This is the really tricky part, though... absolute free expression only prevents people from enacting total control if it persists; however, free speech is not something that can’t be undone. This is a form of the paradox of tolerance. If people use their absolute free speech to push lies and propaganda that al…

Right, lies and propaganda only have to win once.

> only have to win once.

I disagree. If you notice with American politics both sides believe in strong dogmas. There is no middle ground.

They both have made their beds and they will lay in it.

Corporate Dems (control the Democratic Party) and the MAGA (control the GOP) have their own ecochambers. MSNBC, CNN, etc indoctrinate the Dems. Talk radio for the GOP.

The two cults will continue to clash. I wonder if the people will wake up.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#286

Post by slg »

blacksmith_tb wrote: post #236
slg wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think banning online advertising So you want to limit speech in the name of protecting free speech?

Limiting corporate speech in the name of protecting individual speech seems like a reasonable proposal to me.

Corporations aren't the only ones that advertise. Completely eliminating advertising would restrict speech for both corporations and individuals.

Maybe I want to create a charity and am looking to raise awareness for a fundraising event I am having.

Maybe my dog ran away and I want to get the word out about a monetary reward I am offering for helping to find them.

Maybe I am a touring comedian and I want to advertise my next show.

Maybe I am an amateur photographer and want volunteer subjects to help hone my craft.

The list goes on and on for potential non-corporate uses of advertising. If we want to treat corporate speech and individual speech differently, I think there is a much more important place to start: Citizens United v. FEC.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#287

Post by imgabe »

Aerroon wrote: post #146
lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

Free expression is chaotic. It always has been and it always will be. It will always have lies and misinformation, some people will even believe the lies. But this is also the beauty of free expression - it prevents anyone from using it to enact total control. Speech that is free will always seed doubt against ideas, regardless whether those ideas are true or false. It's an avenue that allows anything to be questione…

> It will always have lies and misinformation,

The misconception is that there is a form of speech that doesn't have lies or misinformation. People seem to imagine that there is some perfect form of moderation that will only present us the unvarnished truth. That simply isn't the case. You're only limiting the lies to those that serve the interest of whoever controls the moderation.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#288

Post by zinekeller »

015a wrote: post #247
mcguire wrote: post #212

Playing the devil's advocate here: is this really "exceptional power"? Before the Internet, fringe, extremist political movements had essentially the same options as every other minor interest group: local groups, physical, mailed newsletters, maybe magazines, booths at whatever kind of group meetings, and maybe news media coverage. All of those options still exist. So the modern state of things hasn't removed anythi…

I agree; but there are a few worrying trends that we need to keep an eye on with respect to this: * IPv4 space. IPv4 addresses are increasingly expensive. In a perfect world we'd just get rid of them, but instead, we live in a world where Amazon owns roughly $3B worth of them. They're critical to serving web content; what happens when centralized corporate mega-powers are the only ones who can afford them, or own the…

> roughly four providers (Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, AOL).

At least for North America, three. Yahoo! and AOL are already operating under a single company (formerly Oath, now the much more boring Verizon Media Services), and they have "rationalize" (aka merge) their systems.

Sidenote: The Japanese Yahoo! is not related to the American Yahoo! (except it was before early 2000's came along).

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#289

Post by lliamander »

ogre_codes wrote: post #261
cm2187 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But critical infrastructure is built on AWS. I don't understand how any CEO of any large company would be comfortable with the risk of getting the rug pulled underneath all of its critical systems given that this is just what happened. I think the reputational damage is, or at least should, be much greater than any Parler litigation.

> I don't understand how any CEO of any large company would be comfortable with the risk of getting the rug pulled underneath all of its critical systems given that this is just what happened. If you are trying to make a case that Amazon arbitrarily pulls the plug on customers, Parler should not be your poster child. Amazon gave them 7 weeks of advance notice that their content was in violation of their agreement. Th…

> Amazon gave them 7 weeks of advance notice that their content was in violation of their agreement.

Not the same thing as giving them notice of intent to terminate the contract. If Amazon said "some of your content is in violation, but let's work together to improve your moderation, you have nothing to worry about" that does not give Amazon the right to turn around and terminate them after only 24 hours notice.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#290

Post by read_if_gay_ »

ardy42 wrote: post #250
honest_guy wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what of the lies which led us into the Gulf War and the Iraq War? Hundreds of thousands of people are dead because of those lies, and they were broadcast from coast to coast by every credible news media organisation in existence. The same organisations now being lauded as the bearers of ultimate truth. When the next set of lies is rolled out to land us in another unending conflict, I would quite like the internet…

> And what of the lies which led us into the Gulf War and the Iraq War? Hundreds of thousands of people are dead because of those lies, and they were broadcast from coast to coast by every credible news media organisation in existence. The same organisations now being lauded as the bearers of ultimate truth. What "lie" led us into the Gulf War? Are you claiming that Iraq did not in fact invade and conquer Kuwait? And…

You did claim

> The real problem of the last few years is that really blatant lies have been remarkably successful in the "marketplace of ideas" and quite hard to effectively argue against

so I think it's fair to point out that this is not in fact a new problem, and that private companies probably aren't going to solve it.

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