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‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

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Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#191

Post by sobani »

eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 wrote: post #77
not_knuth wrote: post #3

I can't help but feel that some combination of the Birthday paradox [0] and primates churning out stories [1] is going on here. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem

Can you explain why this is related to the birthday paradox please? I don't get it, sorry! :)

When a million monkeys are typing stories, the odds of two of them being similar enough to be considered the same is _not just_ the odds of the millionth monkey creating a similar story.

Just like the odds of two people in a group having the same birthday is surprisingly low, so are the odds of different cultures coming up with the same story.

If you add a bit of selection bias, where you ignore all cultures that don't have a seven sisters story and ignore all the other myths that are not similar and you could end up with this unsurprising coincidence.

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#192

Post by kepler1 »

dade_ wrote: post #65
reducesuffering wrote: post #15

I'm surprised the article didn't mention one of the most popular names for the "Seven Sisters," Subaru, the Japanese name and vehicle manufacturer whose logo contains six of the stars.

This has made the brand very popular with lesbians. Subaru has capitalized on it well. https://medium.com/th-ink/how-subarus-became-the-car-for-les...

I hope the legend of how the Pleiades sold Subarus to lesbians also endures for 100,000 years.

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#193

Post by csomar »

tsimionescu wrote: post #95
ramraj07 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If true then at least one of the stories should sound in that vein right? Let's consider your rule itself, though first modifying it to the real occams razor which says the simplest answer is probably the real one. Simple is probably more measurable than glamor anyway! So what's the simpler of the two explanations? A complex variation of the story as we now know independently arose in multiple cultures and then every…

Actually the second version seems to make more novel assumptions. We have no (other?) proof of any cultural phenomenon older than maybe 50k years ago even existing, never mind being passed on. To imagine such a specific story surviving for such a huge amount of time while being disconnected from reality seems MUCH more unlikely than having similar stories arise independently about a hard to see but still visible star…

Could this be the result of writing being non-existent at that time? It would be hard to have knowledge passed on between generations without writing, society and preservation. If they lived a nomadic life, they probably had stories to warm up with foreigners but they could not pass a lot of information.

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#194

Post by stareatgoats »

stareatgoats wrote: post #190
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only a quite small number of the Greek pantheon have Indo-European forebears and were brought to Greece with the expansion of the Indo-European languages from the Pontic Steppes. Most of the Greek deities derive from the non-Indo-European autochthonous culture of Greece, or from interaction with the Greeks’ neighbors in Anatolian. Your own linked article emphasizes this: "Despite the popularity of Greek mythology in…

Well, 'similar' and 'dissimilar' are elastic concepts, and as the pantheons mentioned are certainly not 'the same' there is much room for interpretation, where different schools tend to stress the difference more than the similarity or vice versa. But there are sufficient common characteristics to trace a lineage in all of them, albeit certainly intermixed with other influences. In the specific case of the Greek myth…

Addendum: I came across this article which discusses differing views on these things (Hēraklēs in particular) in more detail. Might be of interest: https://classical-inquiries.chs.harvard.edu/comments-on-comp...

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#195

Post by astrange »

sebmellen wrote: post #177
pegasus wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine hunter-gatherers, whose life depended on their eyesight acuity, would be find it easier to spot than most modern humans do.

Indigenous Australians also have incredibly good eyesight, and are probably the people group best preserved in our deeper evolutionary past. See, for example, this article on their special military unit https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-08/prince-harry-may-stru... .

All people are equally old of course, but if you mean the ones closest related to a 100k-year-old hunter gatherer group I think that would be the San or another African group. (They of course aren't completely the same either.)

The Australians encountered multiple non-homo-sapiens species on their way to Australia and might have even picked up better vision from them. They do apparently have better temperature regulation suited to desert nights.

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#196

Post by astrange »

jjk166 wrote: post #173
bencollier49 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea of the 100,000 years of memory is plausible, but I think it's likely to persist because the number seven seems to be universally important to humans. People could potentially have superimposed the number seven on the story, as per the rainbow's seven colours and Newton.

7 is an important number across many cultures which pops up again and again. So is 8 (Eightfold path, 8 days of Hanukka, 8 Beatitudes, 8 Gates of Heaven). So is 6 (6-pointed Star of David, 6 Days of creation, 6 Articles of Belief, 6 Ministries, 666). So is 5. So is 9... There are many more things to be counted than there are numbers to count them with. Saying everyone decided on 7 stars because they just all liked th…

Isn't this the strong law of small numbers? They're likely to be reused often because they're so small.

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#197

Post by dd_roger »

lolinder wrote: post #107
nsilvestri wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being technically visible to the naked eye does not mean they are easily discernable. It's like how the Galilean moons are technically visible to the naked eye, but Jupiter's overwhelming brightness makes them nigh on impossible to see except in specific circumstances.

Right, but that they are ever visible to anyone means that the story could just as easily be inspired by the rarely-seen 7th sister, rather than the last-seen-100k-years-ago 7th sister.

This is a much more likely explanation but in all non-scientific accademic fields it's usually more important to come up with a narrative that's appealing to the general public or the political class than with an accurate narrative. Hence the explanation that makes the most sense but is less "Wow"-inducing will be swept under the rug.

There are plenty of fields where we entertain "mysteries" that have perfectly rational explanations but settling the question once and for all with a rational argument would dry up the funding stream for accademicians and could have other undesirable consequences on some countries' political narrative.

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#198

Post by Keysh »

imglorp wrote: post #76
mellosouls wrote: post #27

It's a nice theory but sometimes simpler, less glamorous solutions might hold the truth. There are more than 6 "sisters" visible with the naked eye, but most people normally can't see them. It's more believable to me that the "missing" 7th sister is just the brightest of the less visible ones. Those less visible would certainly have been used as a test of prowess for determining the keenest-eyed, especially among ear…

A third possibility is one of the stars used to be much brighter for whatever reason. Ancient drawings would help locate the 7th star. One would think star charts are a natural subject for inscriptions predating written language.

A third possibility is one of the stars used to be much brighter for whatever reason.

This is an idea that's been tossed around for a while; it has the problem that ancient Greek discussions agree that there were only six stars visible as long as anyone can recall -- even though the myth said there were seven. So if there was a faded star, it faded prior to 500 BC. (Also, no good candidates for a faded star from modern astronomical studies of the Pleiades.)

Ancient drawings would help locate the 7th star.

Rappenglück (1997) suggested that a collection of dots in the Lascaux cave paintings might represent the Pleiades, in part because it's located above the shoulder of an aurochs (i.e., like the Pleiades is located relative to the constellation of Taurus). But there are only six dots.

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#199

Post by trianglem »

pcmaffey wrote: post #106
tikwidd wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might not be quite as outlandish as it sounds, because we now have plenty of evidence that early humans were living alongside and interacting with other archaic homo species. I have a pet (similarly highly speculative) theory that the Nephilim[1] of the Bible might be a earlier oral history of Neanderthals. But I'll just leave it at that, speculation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

I also have a theory that the Titans were the gods of Neanderthals.

Titans are similar to the Indo-European pantheon of gods which have been around for 5000 years. The Neanderthals haven’t been around for 45,000 years. I strongly doubt that’s the origin for the titans.

The replacement aspect of it most probably comes from the Yamnaya that killed almost ALL the men in northern and Central Europe and replaced them.

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#200

Post by jelliclesfarm »

mssundaram wrote: post #188
jelliclesfarm wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Muruga archetype along with the Krittika/Pleiades mythology helps me remember how to decode the nakshatra in a birth chart. for example, i will always look for themes like fostering/IVF/sperm donation/adoption/caesarian etc if there is a prominent or strong krittika ..especially in the first pada of 13 degrees 20' of aries. also in taurus but it would be slightly different as taurus is venus ruled rather than mar…

Very interesting regarding a strong krittika. Do you offer readings?

not at this time. i am still learning.
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