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Y Combinator’s Paul Graham: We’re Looking For People Like Us

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Re: Y Combinator’s Paul Graham: We’re Looking For People Like Us

#91

Post by paul »

andrewcooke wrote: post #80
paul wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Following all the rules does not make you a good person. In fact, rule following and obedience to authority is what enables large scale evil. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment for a famous demonstration.

On the other hand, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc, broke a few rules too. So I am not sure that championing rule breaking is going to help improve society. More likely, what's actually needed is a balance. And, interestingly, the kind of person that makes a good entrepreneur is probably on the psycopathic side of normal. A very nice article in the Guardian made this point at the weekend - http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/20…

Did you honestly understand my comment as implying that rule breaking automatically makes you a good person? (regardless of which rules are broken)

Re: Y Combinator’s Paul Graham: We’re Looking For People Like Us

#92

Post by [deleted] »

paul wrote: post #91
andrewcooke wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc, broke a few rules too. So I am not sure that championing rule breaking is going to help improve society. More likely, what's actually needed is a balance. And, interestingly, the kind of person that makes a good entrepreneur is probably on the psycopathic side of normal. A very nice article in the Guardian made this point at the weekend - http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/20…

Did you honestly understand my comment as implying that rule breaking automatically makes you a good person? (regardless of which rules are broken)

[deleted]

Re: Y Combinator’s Paul Graham: We’re Looking For People Like Us

#93

Post by [deleted] »

paul wrote: post #91
andrewcooke wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc, broke a few rules too. So I am not sure that championing rule breaking is going to help improve society. More likely, what's actually needed is a balance. And, interestingly, the kind of person that makes a good entrepreneur is probably on the psycopathic side of normal. A very nice article in the Guardian made this point at the weekend - http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/20…

Did you honestly understand my comment as implying that rule breaking automatically makes you a good person? (regardless of which rules are broken)

[deleted]

Re: Y Combinator’s Paul Graham: We’re Looking For People Like Us

#94

Post by nazgulnarsil »

Alex3917 wrote: post #89
nazgulnarsil wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're looking for decision theory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_theory

What I'm interested in though isn't what makes a decision by a person ethical or rational or whatever, but rather what makes a social system itself (or an algorithm that interfaces with people) ethical or unethical. E.g. looking at the ethics of the design the social system behind the Zimbardo prison experiments, rather than looking at the decisions of the individual actors once they're already in that environment. I…

you can evaluate the decision function of groups of people. coming up with ways to morally justify defrauding or committing violence against groups of people by abstracting away their humanity has been a favorite pastime for millennia.

Re: Y Combinator’s Paul Graham: We’re Looking For People Like Us

#95

Post by amackera »

paul wrote: post #68
kemiller wrote: post #14

This is probably the single most discouraging thing I've ever read about startups, but at least it's honest. Entitlement? "Naughtiness"? I think after Google, the idea got out there that it's possible to succeed by just being good . Technically and morally. This sounds like a return to status quo. Not saying he's wrong. He's almost certainly right, it's just depressing.

Following all the rules does not make you a good person. In fact, rule following and obedience to authority is what enables large scale evil. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment for a famous demonstration.

Conversely, breaking all the rules almost always makes you a bad person.

Re: Y Combinator’s Paul Graham: We’re Looking For People Like Us

#96

Post by kemiller »

pg wrote: post #77
kemiller wrote: post #14

This is probably the single most discouraging thing I've ever read about startups, but at least it's honest. Entitlement? "Naughtiness"? I think after Google, the idea got out there that it's possible to succeed by just being good . Technically and morally. This sounds like a return to status quo. Not saying he's wrong. He's almost certainly right, it's just depressing.

You may find it helps clarify matters to read the article Charlie is referring to: http://www.paulgraham.com/founders.html and also this: http://www.paulgraham.com/good.html Combined, the message is: focus on the high bits of good. If someone establishes a clinic in a poor country and saves people's lives, I'm not going to hold it against them if they do it with supplies that fell off a truck.

Thanks for the reply.

I actually have read those. I admit, part of my reaction was purely personal. I want to found a company so much it hurts. I'm smart, resourceful, creative, and determined. But I wouldn't say I'm used to getting my way, and breaking rules -- even in service of a higher goal -- makes me very nervous. (Think Hermione Granger.) So reading this was like getting hit in the gut. Not that it will stop me, but it highlighted how important the emotional aspects to founderhood are and how far I still have to go.

I've seen this trap with a lot of people who did well in school. For 12 formative years you're rewarded for performing tasks to spec and following rules, and you grow up and find that the things you really want to do involve transcending all the traits that got you where you are. That's the element of Google I'm referring to, I suppose. They make almost a cult of academic success, and for some people that was a kind of shining hope. And you, frankly, fit right into that. So to hear you say that guts might matter more in the end than brains hurts, even though I know you're right.

Re: Y Combinator’s Paul Graham: We’re Looking For People Like Us

#97

Post by skmurphy »

Duff wrote: post #33
freshfunk wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the positive qualities of being Kirk-esque and creating one's own rules (see Kobayashi Maru). I also understand the qualities of being single-minded in purpose, determination and the will to succeed. These are qualities needed to survive in the uncertain, risky and scary environment of an entrepreneur. However, I wonder when we begin to cross the fine-line between naughtiness, white-lies, small-rule brea…

I think that you're zooming into this too much and missing the point. Think about the difference between success in the military versus success in a small business. In the Army, a protocol faux pas or a single ill-considered statement can implode your career path. Understanding of and adherence to the rules is job 1. In a startup mode, you can ignore conventions/rules, because those things are often not relevant to a…

You are talking about a peace time military. A war time military is much more focused on results. It's an important distinction.

Re: Y Combinator’s Paul Graham: We’re Looking For People Like Us

#98

Post by kemiller »

geebee wrote: post #42
tlb wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Google founders were more than simply good. They were determined to be #1. Most people aren't.

They are now, but were they at the start? I remember a PG essay where the google guys were held up as an example of how even those developers with amazing potential can still be hesitant at the beginning, unsure of whether they want to or even can run a company. I think this is the quote I remember...: from http://paulgraham.com/notnot.html "There's nothing wrong with being unsure. If you're a hacker thinking about s…

I guess I'm not sure how that jives with:

“There are some people who just get what they want in the world. If you want to start a startup you have to be one of those people. You can’t be passive and wishy-washy.”

Does wishy-washy mean something other than unsure?

Re: Y Combinator’s Paul Graham: We’re Looking For People Like Us

#99

Post by kemiller »

geebee wrote: post #42
tlb wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Google founders were more than simply good. They were determined to be #1. Most people aren't.

They are now, but were they at the start? I remember a PG essay where the google guys were held up as an example of how even those developers with amazing potential can still be hesitant at the beginning, unsure of whether they want to or even can run a company. I think this is the quote I remember...: from http://paulgraham.com/notnot.html "There's nothing wrong with being unsure. If you're a hacker thinking about s…

I guess I'm not sure how that jives with:

“There are some people who just get what they want in the world. If you want to start a startup you have to be one of those people. You can’t be passive and wishy-washy.”

Does wishy-washy mean something other than unsure?

Re: Y Combinator’s Paul Graham: We’re Looking For People Like Us

#100

Post by nostrademons »

amackera wrote: post #95
paul wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Following all the rules does not make you a good person. In fact, rule following and obedience to authority is what enables large scale evil. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment for a famous demonstration.

Conversely, breaking all the rules almost always makes you a bad person.

Nobody can ever break all the rules - the laws of physics might have something to say about it.

If you limit your statement to "all the rules of the society in which you live", I'm not sure your statement is true. What do you think of Oskar Schindler? Womanizer, cheat, Nazi, fraud, and traitor. Yet he saved the lives of hundreds of Jews during the holocaust, and ended up as the hero of a movie.

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