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E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

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Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#111

Post by kortilla »

oezi wrote: post #103
MontyCarloHall wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, make the cost to renew a patent each year increase exponentially, with the base proportional to the worth of the individual/company filing the patent at the time of filing. That ties the duration of a patent directly to how much value it provides to the company over time, which is the rationale for having patents in the first place. A company could only afford to hold onto a patent for as long as it ca…

Getting exponential curves right is very tricky though (just look at Covid). I believe using such escalating fees would just favor the big companies who can stay ahead of the curve. Another idea I think worth exploring is mandatory licensing at fixed rates which decline over years and/or are tied to revenue the patent holder generates with the patent. The goal really should be to increase utility of the patent for th…

> I believe using such escalating fees would just favor the big companies who can stay ahead of the curve.

But that’s fine. If a company can rake in so much money off of one product it’s still providing an obscene amount of value.

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#112

Post by bryanrasmussen »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #74
D13Fd wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree about patents. This is the patent system working as designed. It incentivized a company to invent a new thing, and gave them a monopoly for a reasonable amount of time (20 years). When it ends, others can operate in the space. I agree about copyright, though. Copyright has been expanded to cover software and even APIs. Copyright is a giant drag on innovation. A single company can tie up a space fo…

20 years is not a reasonable amount of time for technological products in current times.

I think 20 years might be a reasonable amount of time for hardware, which requires a heavy outlay in money to produce and which does not have almost zero cost to replicate, but not for software which can generally be copied for nothing and does not cost much to produce.

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#113

Post by warmwaffles »

feb wrote: post #97
listerOfSmeg wrote: post #6

E-ink is one of those techs that only advanced when large batches of patents expire. E-ink the company has tied up the tech stack in so many patents, NDA's, and exorbitant prices that no one wants to touch it. E-ink the technology wont go any where for 10-15 years when that next big batch of patents expire. Its just like 3D displays and VR there will be a massive consumer push new batches of patents will be filed pro…

Patents have stalled technology in many areas since a long time. The book "Against Intellectual Monopoly" [1] by Michele Boldrin and David K. Levine analyze the economical impact of patterns on society. They give some surprising examples, like how the Wright brothers invested heavily in patents and legal actions to stiffle competition instead of continuing development of airplanes. [1] http://dklevine.com/general/int…

Firearms industry had this as well. Smith & Wesson for the longest time fought tooth and nail to be the only revolver manufacturer in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#114

Post by patothon »

qwerty456127 wrote: post #52

I really want an e-ink (I mean an e-ink-only, not a dual-screen Lenovo ThinkBook) laptop. And I want it monochrome, low-refresh, no-clutter lo-fi. Rich colour, high refresh rates? No, thank you, I appreciate the mental silence classic e-ink devices provide. Just give me a reMarkable with a keyboard, capable to run a terminal and something like Emacs with org-roam.

how do you type with low refresh screen?

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#115

Post by nicoburns »

kortilla wrote: post #111
oezi wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting exponential curves right is very tricky though (just look at Covid). I believe using such escalating fees would just favor the big companies who can stay ahead of the curve. Another idea I think worth exploring is mandatory licensing at fixed rates which decline over years and/or are tied to revenue the patent holder generates with the patent. The goal really should be to increase utility of the patent for th…

> I believe using such escalating fees would just favor the big companies who can stay ahead of the curve. But that’s fine. If a company can rake in so much money off of one product it’s still providing an obscene amount of value.

No it's not. It just entrenches the position of those who have money, to the disadvantage of everyone else.

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#116

Post by qwerty456127 »

patothon wrote: post #114
qwerty456127 wrote: post #52

I really want an e-ink (I mean an e-ink-only, not a dual-screen Lenovo ThinkBook) laptop. And I want it monochrome, low-refresh, no-clutter lo-fi. Rich colour, high refresh rates? No, thank you, I appreciate the mental silence classic e-ink devices provide. Just give me a reMarkable with a keyboard, capable to run a terminal and something like Emacs with org-roam.

how do you type with low refresh screen?

I never tried to actually type, only to enter words letter-by-letter with a stylus (on a PocketBook). Obviously I would prefer it to be fast enough to handle typing but I don't want dynamic visual effects which modern UI/web designers consider a norm and I don't need it to play realtime games or videos.

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#117

Post by crazygringo »

listerOfSmeg wrote: post #6

E-ink is one of those techs that only advanced when large batches of patents expire. E-ink the company has tied up the tech stack in so many patents, NDA's, and exorbitant prices that no one wants to touch it. E-ink the technology wont go any where for 10-15 years when that next big batch of patents expire. Its just like 3D displays and VR there will be a massive consumer push new batches of patents will be filed pro…

Just to play devil's advocate, that's the whole purpose of patents, to prevent progress by others.

On the other hand, the gain is that E Ink Corporation decided it was worth investing in developing and commercializing the technology knowing they'd have exclusive rights for 20 years, and quite possible only because of that. If they didn't have that guarantee, it might not have been worth any company developing it in the first place.

Now I'm not familiar with the history of investment in e-ink specifically. But I'm curious if there's anyone here who is: if patent protection wasn't available, would it have been worth it for any company to develop it, knowing it might be copied a year later by a competitor who would then undercut the original inventors (not having to pay for the expensive R&D)?

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#118

Post by rudolph9 »

crazygringo wrote: post #117
listerOfSmeg wrote: post #6

E-ink is one of those techs that only advanced when large batches of patents expire. E-ink the company has tied up the tech stack in so many patents, NDA's, and exorbitant prices that no one wants to touch it. E-ink the technology wont go any where for 10-15 years when that next big batch of patents expire. Its just like 3D displays and VR there will be a massive consumer push new batches of patents will be filed pro…

Just to play devil's advocate, that's the whole purpose of patents, to prevent progress by others. On the other hand, the gain is that E Ink Corporation decided it was worth investing in developing and commercializing the technology knowing they'd have exclusive rights for 20 years, and quite possible only because of that. If they didn't have that guarantee, it might not have been worth any company developing it in t…

It’s important to remember every laws has trade offs, including patent laws. Perhaps patents stiffened e-ink but OP seems to have issue with patents in general which it would be hard to argue universally prevent innovation.

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#119

Post by Eric_WVGG »

elaus wrote: post #12

I'm still waiting for widely available and affordable e-ink displays for tinkerers. I'd love to put one onto a Raspberry Pi to show some information, but it's just too expensive right now.

I just bought an InkPlate. It's a recycled Kindle display on a board with an Arduino, Wifi, SD slot, and even a couple of capacitive touch spots on the board for interaction. Can be programmed in C or MicroPython, or switched into "peripheral mode" (I might have gotten that name wrong) and glommed onto a Pi or whatever.

It's very cool, about $100. https://inkplate.io

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#120

Post by Groxx »

zimpenfish wrote: post #70
GekkePrutser wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's already here, they speak of the current-generation ACeP: https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/inky-impression Saturation, contrast and refresh are still the main weaknesses though. Especially because a full-color display uses numerous full-page refreshes to achieve all colours which are really jarring.

> Especially because a full-color display uses numerous full-page refreshes to achieve all colours which are really jarring. Can confirm - I have a Kaleido based e-reader and whilst I do like that book covers are in colour, scrolling through even a small library is jank central due to the multiple refreshes.

Worth noting that Kaleido and ACeP are very different.

Kaleido is effectively an RGB LCD in front of an E-Ink screen - you get color at 1/3 the resolution of black and white, but "normal" refresh rates. This accounts for all of the multi-color e-ink readers on the market now.

AcEP is 4 pigments per cell, so you get full resolution and better saturation and contrast, but terrible refresh rates. Last I saw for ACeP it was something like 15 seconds. Presumably this 2nd generation is much faster, but I haven't seen anything that actually says how fast.

https://www.eink.com/color-technology.html

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